Nate Berent-Spillson: You know, it's part of what we bring to the table when you partner with us. And it's the frictionless foundation.

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Clinton Bonner: Welcome to Catalyst, the Launch by NTT Data podcast. Catalyst is an ongoing discussion for digital leaders dissatisfied with the status quo, and yet optimistic about what's possible through smart technology and great people. Joining me back in the studio, the guest so nice we had to have him twice - this might even be thrice, I don't even know at this point - the VP of Engineering at Launch by NTT Data, Nate Berent-Spillson. Nate, what's going on today? How are you doing, man

Nate: I'm doing great, Clinton, and thanks for having me on again. I'm excited to talk with you some more.

Clinton: Of course. Always a good time, and we get great reactions when you are on. And mainly - I hate to say mainly because of the book, but hey, you wrote a book. It's doing great out there in the market and making some waves, and I think really bringing a specific and strong point of view. The book is called Frictionless Enterprise, came out a few months ago now, and I thought it'd be cool to kind of have you back on, to not only... Not just recap the book. It's like, okay, well, yeah, maybe a little bit of, what didn't we cover last time? But I really was interested in the reaction. What are you seeing out there? What kind of conversations is it stirring? Which ones did you expect? Which ones are like, wow, that kind of came out of left field. I wasn't expecting, like, an evolution of convos to go that way. And also just, you know, what's on your mind now that you've already written this book, and what possibly could be what you want to go do next? So, I want to share that with the audience today and take us through that. Because, you know, I think writing a book, it's obviously several months, but I actually think more likely, I think you said last time, probably several years from when you started to think about it, through it being actually out to market.

Nate: Yeah. The response has been very positive. As I've gotten it out into people's hands, what has been interesting is that, you know, I'm a tech person, and so a lot of people that I talk with, like, they know me as the tech guy or the computer guy or the whatever, in the world of technology. And, you know, they get a hold of the book and then they call me or text me or anything, they're like, wow. Like, there was a lot of stuff in there that really applied to business. You know, really the whole first half of it was just all about business. And then, yeah, toward the second half, like, it got really technical and I got kind of lost. And these are people who are coming from, you know, more of a business background or a marketing background or, you know, different areas that are outside of technology. And that is how the book was designed. You know, there is that point, you know, where it's like, hey, you can stop reading here, but if you want to go deep on tech, I wanted to make sure we had that good technology credential, you know, in there too. So people knew it wasn't just fluff. So that part has been exciting, because I think it has helped people recognize a lot of the patterns that they couldn't quite put their finger on that were holding them back. And, like, be able to put a name to it. And one of the things that I often describe it as is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And I'm probably going to date myself, but I remember those Magic Eye posters, you know.

Clinton: Of course. 

‍Nate: Where you get your eyes to, like, kind of go out of focus just enough to see the picture. And then you could do it, like, you know, instantaneously from that point forward. And it's the same kind of thing. Once you see those patterns and you recognize, you can be like, oh, wow, that's, you know, we're re-solving a solved problem. Or, you know, we've got a holy war going on here. Or whatever that pattern happens to be. And this isn't a comprehensive pattern book by any means, but it's starting to frame those things that we often get stuck on, and help people recognize them. So that's been a lot of the buzz and excitement I've heard and seen has been in and around those areas, from a technology perspective as well. You know, people are like, there's really good meaty stuff there.

Clinton: Yeah.

‍Nate: And it's a good frame of reference for any technical person as well.

‍Clinton: Yeah, obviously I'm intimately familiar with the work, and I agree. I remember when we were shaping it up, and we were discussing, like, at first, a lot of that technical stuff, right? The second half of the book, was going to be, like, this large addendum. And I was like, whoa, this feels way more important than just to call it an addendum. And we still needed that grace period for a reader that was like, hey, the train has come to a certain destination, I think was the metaphor we were using, too. I think it worked well to say, if you got enough out of it from a business perspective, great. You can gladly hop off now and take some stuff and take some charge with it. And then, for the good wonks out there, right, like you said, hey, they know you as a tech guy. Good. You could, you know, pardon the phrase nerd out, go deep. And understand how they apply technically into the things you laid out in the first half of the book. So, I think it does serve all sides real nicely there. And I love that metaphor, by the way, of the magic posters. When you see something. And for me, as a kid growing up, I could never see 'em. Like, when I was a 16-year-old, 18-year-old. That's the... We're of the same age, and those things were getting hot and heavy. And there's actually a great Stuff You Should Know podcast just about that.

Nate: Oh, wow.

Clinton: But I think it's a great metaphor that does hit. Because, you go through your day to day, and days go fast. They... It's... We're recording this on Friday.

‍Nate: Yeah. 

Clinton: And we all know, like, wow, this... Another week went really, really fast. And it's January 26th. Another month went really, really fast. And that's just the way life goes. And if you're just in that all the time and you can't see it, it's almost like predator in the jungle. Like, it's there, it's making noise. But if you're not looking for it, you don't know what to look for, you're gonna be blind to it. You're going to have this blind spot. And I think the book does a great job of giving people the, the lensing to put it in a different plane. Like, oh, I could spot that now. And I think that's probably, if I had to crystallize it, probably the number one value of the book, is like, that ability to see it. And then you're giving great direction on, hey, gotta recognize it and be honest with it. And then there's really tried-and-true ways, things you can do to improve it from there. So I think readers will probably take, if anything else away, they get that point of view on how to find it, which I think is really, really important. At least it's a step one for sure.

Nate: Yeah. And breaking out of it.

Clinton: Yeah.

Nate: Having something that is actionable is crucial to me.

‍Clinton: Yep.

Nate: You know, just as the way that I operate. And that was something I wanted to make sure came through, is that there was clear actions, clear strategies, clear tactics that you can leverage to start to, not just recognize the pattern. Obviously, you know, there's different ways to solve the problem. But... And then here's some options for how you can counteract the pattern, or try to break it. One of the things I always come back to, I come back to behavior and the changing of behavior. And it's so hard when you're patterned into a given behavior, to change it yourself, or when you have an organizational behavior that you're trying to change. So, if you have an organization that tends towards something, you have to be kind to yourself, too. That it's going to feel like you're not making any progress. You know, sometimes, when you're trying to break and get one of those things to repattern. And give it time. And that, there's like, that built-in adoption curve, that built-in adjustment curve to some of these things. So, just to understand, like, you may try that tactic or that technique to try to break the pattern after you've recognized it, and find yourself frustrated. Like, I'm not... It's not moving. It's not happening, you know? And like, you will be surprised on how many times I see this myself, where you're frustrated that something isn't moving and you're not getting the change you're trying to facilitate, and then it breaks loose. You know, and it's like, you overcame that inertia, finally. And like, now you've got motion again. You know, and you can start to build momentum. And going through that pattern over and over and over again... Every time you go through it, it's still going to be effort. You know? This stuff is hard, and you have to be kind to yourself as you go through that process. You know, it is going to take time.

Clinton: Yeah. I think it's good advice that these things... You know, there's, I think it was... I think it's actually a Bill Gates quote that's like, people often overestimate what they can accomplish in a year, and grossly underestimate what they could get done in ten years. You know, that space of time... Because we talk about time. Man, time's a thief. Time goes fast. We're going to turn the page. It's February already in 2024, so we know it can fly by. And that's why momentum is really... That's why it's part of the subtitle of the book, right?

Nate: Yes. 

Clinton: It's like, look, progress is very, very often not linear, right? It's not like it is on this happy journey and you're just up, up and away, and there's no bumps. Much like a stock market or things like that, progress has ups and downs. And then of course, over time, there's trend lines.

Nate: Yeah.

Clinton: And that's the identifier of, did you have the right momentum? You know, are you plateauing early, are you never getting escape velocity? Or, over time, six months, 12 months, 18 months, 24 months, can you plot a line and be like, oh yeah, this is consistent progress? And if you did, it's a measure of the momentum you created previous.

Nate: Yes. Even in the book, the book writing process, the book publishing process. And then subsequently, like, after the book was done and published and out there, I was speaking with someone else who has written several books, and getting their advice. And they were like, yeah, the writing and the publishing is the easy part. It's the after that, you know, it's building the, you know, the elevator pitch. Building the, you know, couple hour workshop. Building the couple-day workshop. You know,. And you'll notice, in Frictionless Enterprise, like... I'm not really selling anything in there. 

Clinton: Right.

Nate: You know, and that was by design. I'm like, there's no thing at the end is like, you know... But then you have people who are like, I want this. And I'm like, in order for me to get you to this place, we're going to have to tailor fit that to your situation, your world, your, you know, what you're living in. And then once we have that custom fit model for it, and that's going to be us working together and building that, then we can have an execution plan. But it's not something that's, like, in a box, that's shrink wrapped, that, you know, you just open up and like, poof, it, you know, it comes into existence. But there are a lot of things that we have been working on and building as part of that toolkit that comes with it, or I guess, that you can use to help you accelerate through. That was one of the statements that I made in the book. You know, when I was talking about, like, that frictionless foundation part, is that, you know, when you're looking for a partner, look for one that's got accelerators that can quickly get you through that, rather than you having to go spend a ton of money on all of this, like building stuff from scratch and doing the transformations and everything else, like really accelerating you through that. And that's one of the things that we realized was a key differentiator for us to be able to be way more consultative. Like, in creating that map. And then, hey, for these areas, like, let's accelerate you through there. And we have accelerators that we're bringing to the table to do that, you know? So we can transform... I love, just that whole time compression concept.

Clinton: Yeah.

Nate: You know, you talk about it, they overestimate what they can achieve in a year. But I think in some ways, they underestimate what they can achieve in a year or less. They underestimate, only because there's so much friction, you know, or so many barriers that are there in front of them. And I think being able to bring those things to clients... And, where they were hesitant, where they were maybe unsure, and didn't have that confidence, and be able to get them through that, and build that confidence. And then, like, as they build that confidence, you talk about momentum... Like, momentum in someone's confidence or in an organization's confidence? Like, that's really what you're building. They know they can do it.

Clinton: Yeah. I love pairing the words momentum and confidence. And I've shared with the audience before, here, that I do sports podcasting, I'm a Seattle Seahawks podcaster. And, often the debate comes up in sports, like, is momentum real? Is momentum real? And I'm always like, I'm of the belief, you don't watch or played sports in your life if you think it's not real. Now, it might be like, well, how do you quantify that? And, in a recent discussion I was having with a dude from Montana who's on the pod with me, he's like, look, I would just frame it as executional confidence. And then, this is the sports podcast, but it really translates back over, because it's like, hey, that next play, these things work together. It's a football pod, so, the line, you know, the line is confident in how they're going to move and move bodies. The back is confident in what they're going to see in front of them, to give the hole that they believe is going to be there. And then the machine works. And they march down the field much smoother. I love the idea of parlaying momentum into its executional confidence. What do you think of that analogy, or those words, to try to describe what can be a tough word to define?

Nate: It's right on the money. And you're absolutely right, it is the confidence. And I will say, the other component to that is the knowing, being able to rely on your teammates.

Clinton: Yeah. 

Nate: Being able to rely on your leadership. Being able to rely on your support structures that you have. And know that you're going to be able to lean into them, and they are going to deliver. And that uncertainty that a lot of organizations will have, where they don't have that confidence, they're like, oh, well, what if? You know, and they get hesitant and a little bit afraid. And like, you have to just know, like, look, I am going to do my job, and I'm going to execute the way that I can execute, with what I have. And I know that I'm going to be able to rely on everyone else. And, not only that, but that even if things don't go perfectly, we are going to be able to recover. We're going to be able to rally, we'll adjust, we'll recover. It's not an expectation of perfection. 

Clinton: Right. 

Nate: It's an expectation of, like, commitment. And commitment to each other, and quality. Like... That reliance. I will say also that that's one thing that I've talked about as well, like, and one of the things that we really need, like, what do you need? Like, I need to be able to rely on this, this process. I need to be able to rely on this, this system, this technology, this thing, you know, this process, this group of people. And so, when you combine those things together, I think that's what it gives you. Is when you have that confidence in execution, that focus. Now, what happens? The pressure comes off. When do you do your best stuff? You do it when you're calm. You do it when you're relaxed. You do it when things just flow and happen.

Clinton: Yeah. 

Nate: And you can't bottle it. Like, that state. As much as you want to, for anyone who's ever experienced that, in the business world, in the sports world, whatever else, you get to that flow state, that Zen state, you're like, whew, I wish I was like this all the time. 

Clinton: Right. 

Nate: But you get more of those when you have that level of reliance. And hey, even if you're not hitting, and doing everything perfectly, the great thing is, you have so many other people around you who are. There's a great chance that they're going to be, like, absolutely on that day. Or someone's going to have a breakout day to make up for those gaps.

Clinton: Yeah.

Nate: So anyway, it's a great thought, it's a great metaphor. You can't measure it, but you can definitely feel it.

Clinton: Yeah. And the piece for me that I love, too, about, you know, when people see a title like Frictionless Enterprise and, you know, like you described earlier, yes, it is a book on how to set up your company to act like a technology platform so you could run very smoothly. With that, though, the things we're talking about, and I think the things that come out of the discussions that you're having with the book as a way to really ignite new conversations, excite new people in a new way... It's also a business book. And then the things you just talked about, yes, it's business, but that's a leadership element. That's a leadership book on how do you get the team in that state? Because you hear about agile flow, and you hear about developers being in a flow state. But again, like you said, that's also Michael Jordan flu game stuff. Where it's like, the dude just can't miss! And it's, he's just shaking his head being like, I don't know, I'm just in that zone. And people do understand that feeling. And I love the way you captured it too, Nate. It's not a light switch. You can't just be like, okay, I'm getting back into that state. Now, of course, as an individual human, maybe there are things you do. Maybe it's... Maybe it's yoga, whatever those things might be for an individual person. Put on some rock music. Do 100 jumping jacks. Whatever, right? There's different ways individuals can throttle back in. But organizationally, as a leadership function, that's a thing I don't think people talk about too, too often, but the book does. The book, if you take it to that level, which I think is very easy, you're doing it right now. It's like, look, this is about getting the entire organization in that state as often as it can be. And there's no promises, because it's hard. However, there are ways to do it so you're there more often than you used to be.

Nate: Absolutely. Yeah. And getting an organization into that state, you know, is the real challenge there.

Clinton: Right.

Nate: Because what we end up doing... You know, organizations evolve over time. And they grow, and they expand, and there's different models for organizations and the different types of organizational behaviors you see. And there's certain things that just will start to come into play as the size of the organization grows. And so, you know, you look at large enterprises, like, they have been very successful for a reason. You know, at some point they had a special sauce recipe, and they optimized it, and they innovated, and they built that mechanism. At a certain point, then, they also got to the size where just, they had to have more structures, more governance, more... And I was talking about this, this is an article that I've been working on. You have to realize that at some point that becomes almost like a crystallization. That makes things then start to become rigid. And you have to keep flexing that stuff over time. Yes, for a certain period of time, like, you want that stuff to take root. And then, like, for that machine to run, like, really well, at some point, as much as we would love, you don't... You have external forces that are going to then disrupt, and basically be better than, that current crystalline structure you have. So you have to now, like, be able to flex that and modify it. And some of that will go away, and some of that will be replaced by new things. To keep that momentum and that motion going. This is what's interesting about the companies that have gotten good at, not just the, we're going to create a good special sauce recipe, then we're going to operationalize and optimize that operational model for it. Crank on it. What you're really seeing is that the companies that have mastered this have now taken, not just that, like, they're good at that. They're like, yeah, that's... That's, like, the step, that's the easy stuff. Then, you get great at transformation. 

Clinton: Right. 

‍Nate: And business transformation. And you look at the companies that have just done that over and over, reinvented themselves over and over and over again, and the leaders that have been able to put those motions in place, they're just unstoppable. And they'll make a bet, they'll make a big bet, and be confident that they're going to be able to test that quickly, and then, if it's not the right answer, you know, giving it enough time to incubate. And they have other things that they're working on that they can then pivot and make that switch. And so, that building of momentum isn't just in terms of, like, getting your organization and getting your business. It is, like, at its very basic level, getting your business aligned with technology. Now you have the benefit of, like, getting not just your business today, but your business tomorrow, aligned, and then realigning technology to realign with that new model.

Clinton: Yeah. I know, obviously, people gravitate to Amazon as, okay, we're going to talk about platform companies that excel. Right? And scale. For sure. Of course. And there's a reason we talk about them a lot, because when you're talking about the ability to take large risks while other things are happening in parallel, and of course, at this point that they're quite resilient, and maybe the most resilient, because of what they've earned, right? In the marketplace. But I remember Jeff Bezos standing up with the Fire phone. Like, that was a thing for a bit. That was a big bet. And then, they came out with the cloud gaming platform that hasn't really hit or stuck the way they think they wanted it to, yet, either. Alright. So that might be two large scale things that did not go the way they wanted. The Fire phone just doesn't even exist. In parallel, how many more people are now using it as a grocer? And just getting on-repeat things delivered without even thinking about them, simplifying their lives. And now, here they come with their pharmacy solution and services.

Nate: Yeah.

Clinton: And so, it's just that relentlessness. And again, yes, I know, it's Amazon. But I think part of the book is to still peel people into, and say, look. Yeah, you might not be that size yet. Or ever. Amazon's kind of a one of one, or a one of 2, or 3, in the history of humankind so far, in terms of scalable businesses that way. Yet, the lessons of, how do you set up so you can act as a platform, so you can take your swings, and then be real resilient when one doesn't hit, because you got the next one in the fire, the next one in the fire. And that process is still going to breed... usually breed growth, is what it boils down to. Which is just cool stuff. And I did want to pivot to, Nate, I wanted to ask you from an author perspective. You know, you talked about,  we have a digital version of Frictionless Enterprise. We're about to release the audiobook for Frictionless Enterprise. But I wanted to kind of go old school too. This, I just think people will be interested to understand from your perspective. We decided to print physical books. You know, you're like, hey, let's get physical books done. What has that done for you? You know, you're a technology leader. What does the tactile, physical book do that a digital book cannot?

Nate: I love physical books. And I love just even the tactical feel of the cover of the book. It's like, a little bit grippy. And... And I don't know, like, what it is. It's nice to touch. The other thing is, is that it gives options for connecting with people, with a physical object. And I do think, you know, I know our whole lives and worlds are all revolving around digital. But the other thing is, is that, it's... You can read it cover to cover if you want. But also, you know, just setting it on your desk and having it handy. And I have a lot of books that I just, I keep physical copies close to me. Because I want to be able to grab them and open them up and look at that. Like, go back to that thing. I remember that thing. And like... And, here. And the physical book has been great. And it's a conversation-starter for me. You know, it's a lead-behind. You know, I have a conversation with someone, you know, I'm meeting with someone, whatever, and I give them a copy of the book as a lead-behind, or as a follow-up, for something for me to, you know, get 'em a copy, a physical copy of the book, you know, which I'm happy to drop in the mail and get to them in their hands. But yeah, something that they can flip through. And I've been in meetings, or been in, you know, sitting at lunch or whatever, and, you know, like, I give them a copy of the book, you know, and like, they, like, flip through it and they're like, hey, look at... And they're pointing to the, like, one of the pages, you know, one of the headlines in there, for the sections. So, I think that there still is a real attraction to having something that's physical, and that... Something you can have sticky notes poking out of. And you can mark in and write in and, you know, it becomes this, like, working copy of capturing your thoughts and your ideas. You know, and adding your own stuff, or pulling something out, or something you want to quickly reference. And so many times of that, it's like, I reach for that book. Like, not just Frictionless, but the other books I keep handy, and flip to the page, you know, that I got marked, and like, hold it up to my camera. You know, and like, this. Like, I'm going to send you a link to this, or send you a copy of this book. I need you to, like, go in and dig in on this, because it's exactly what we're talking about. And I hope that some of those lessons in there, some of those patterns and things, like, become one of those things that people, like, reference to, and, you know, and go back to, and be like, yeah, that's right. I'm doing this, you know, or I've seen this. Here's some ideas on how we can overcome it.

Clinton: Yeah. I thought it'd be cool for you to share that perspective as a first-time author. Because, like, hey, things have to happen on a budget, right? Besides your time and effort. And again, we decided to go and make sure we got an audiobook coming out. And, the decision of, like, yeah, we want physical books, and use them for the reason you said. I agree, there's still something significant about... Couple of things. You know, gift giving is still a very powerful tool, right? And... Certainly, it's one thing to get a gift card. And yes, that's physical in some way, but really it's a representation of the physical thing you could go choose. Or it could just come over your phone as a QR code nowadays and be fully digital. That's one thing, and that's fine. And it's good, and it has a place. And then there's the physical, there's that tactile that you were talking about. And I just wanted you to share how it's opened up things for you, and offered a different way for you as the author to provoke, in a good way. Start new conversations. And use it as a way to either continue or start new discussions with people that really want to dive in. So I thought that was worthy to, you know, just share with other burgeoning authors out there.

Nate: Yeah. And the other one that I'll say is the audiobook. And so, again, like, you convince me to record an audiobook. And, okay, I'll do it. (Laughs) It was... it was a process. But the interesting thing, that audiobooks are something that I also highly recommend. And I use it as an efficiency thing.

Clinton: Yeah.

Nate: In that I always have an audiobook going, and I try to have two different categories, one, you know, nonfiction and one fiction. And then, whatever I'm doing. If I'm, you know, have a long drive, if I'm doing yard work, if I'm doing chores, I can just throw, you know, an earbud in and listen to that audiobook. And it gives me this great asynchronous mechanism to be able to consume information. You know, podcasts are another thing. But that's another thing is, like, now I've got this other medium that people are able to get exposure to that content, without having to necessarily sit down with their Kindle, you know, and open up the e-book, or with their physical copy and open up the book. But they're like, hey, you know what? I'm walking the dog. I'm going to throw this on and, you know, work my way through Frictionless Enterprise.

Clinton: Yeah, I think it's some cool stuff. But again, for, I'm sure... I know we have authors who are listeners, and folks that probably have been tinkering with the idea, so I thought it'd be worthy to share with them some of the ways that you approached it. And that you said earlier, hey, the writing part, getting it live, that could be easy. Then there's the thrust afterwards to, how do you get the world to care? (Laughs) A little bit about it, right? Which is interesting. And I also know that the book itself, Frictionless Enterprise, has spurred quite a number of conversations. Usually with technology leaders and folks that are burgeoning technology leaders. What's the range of convos like for you? And is it, like, in a certain industry there's more of a reaction, less of a reaction? What have you seen as you've gone into boardrooms and gone on-site with clients and over Zooms, and talked about the philosophy?

Nate: Well, it resonates broadly. Across, you know, different verticals, different size organizations, from, you know, enterprise, Fortune 500, to startups. There's something in there for organizations of all sizes and types. That's one thing that I found. I have found that some people are like, they do look at it as, like, okay, like, I need this, I want this. And sort of expecting that there is this shrink-wrapped thing like I referred to earlier. And we'll, you know, we work with them to build up that strategy. You know, and get them a plan for execution. And then, interestingly enough, there are some people who are like, yeah, like, we're in a different place. Like, we've found that we've done a lot of these transformations. We've got a good technology foundation, or at least one that we think is good. We've adopted a lot of these patterns. But the combinatory effect is still eluding us. Or, we've gotten up to this certain level and we've plateaued. And we're having trouble breaking through. And I, like, there's a couple of different, you know, like, mental models for things like, you know, you've got technology adoption curve and then you've got, like, the plateau effect and breakthrough type S-curve. And talking with, then, clients and thinking about where they're at, and like, okay. You're on to the next set of challenges. You know, like... And there is. There's a whole other set of challenges, than like... And I talk about that in, like, the trade-offs and the balance beam. You know, and that... There's always a trad- off. So you're accepting the trade-offs and, like, understanding, like, okay, good. Like, we've gotten all of the friction out of, like, our technology platform. Like, we've got a good solid foundation for our software delivery platform. We've got a pretty good business platform that we've established now. You know, we've taken away developer friction. Like, we've got the business focused on the business. Now it's like, well, now we have problems in combination, where we've been trying to optimize the whole thing and we realize, we need to be optimizing individual pieces of that business now. It's become, you know, like... Again, like, the business itself has, in some ways, become monolithic in the way that we think about it. So you've got a different set of challenges. Let's talk about those now. Let's talk about the strategies that we can use to help you, like, re-compartmentalize in your business. Platform domains, or whatever that thing happens to be. So that was one of the things that was interesting to see is, like, the different levels of challenge. No matter what, what level you're at, even if you're the best of the best, you're the best in the world. There's still some level above you that you're trying to get to. You know, you're going to keep pushing that envelope. So, as companies then work through, and get to that next level of maturity, they see, ah, now here's the next set of opportunities that we have. And going back to that, like, getting good at transformation, it's like, getting good at just not... Realizing that you're never done. You're just going to identify the next bottleneck after you eliminate the current constraint you have.

Clinton: I chat with my team a lot about the focus, or the desire to cause good problems. Because I think that's a lot of... It's like, hey, it's... Because there is a choke point, and it's like, we got to... As you solve for that, it opens the system wider, and it does cause another problem downstream, and you've gotta go solve for it. But it's a higher-value problem. And that becomes, that becomes addictive. And again, back, probably back to momentum as well. Because it does, it increases flow state across the board. So I love that concept of, how those things, how momentum is, in a way, the ability to continuously cause the next good problem. And then understand it, solve it, and even get better, get better at how quickly you can solve the next one, to open it up further and just get it to that organizational level. And then, Nate, I do want to kind of land on this part, too. When you're talking with the clients that are like, hey, they recognize it, or they go, ooh. You said that thing. I see a particular diagram. They go, ooh, that's us. That's the pain we're feeling. And I want that. Yes, I know there's customization and we have to talk with, you, and the team. Talk with the clients one-on-one, and prospects one-on-one, on... Okay. Great that you want it. Thank you. And we have to carve out a map that is true to your organization. Otherwise, like you said, it's not off the shelf.

Nate: Yeah.

Clinton: But you did talk about the accelerators at the base of the pyramid. And I would ask folks that are interested, of course, go grab the book. Launch.NTTData.com. Frictionless Enterprise. You'll find it out there, very easy to go get, digitally, free, go enjoy. And... that base of the pyramid. What are we... when you say, hey, there's toolsets, there's ways to accelerate that. What does that mean?

Nate: That means that, you know, it's part of what we bring to the table when you partner with us. And it's the frictionless foundation. First of all, I'm not going to be overly prescriptive. But when we do talk, that's part of, like, that initial conversation is just figuring out, like, hey, where are you at with, you know, your DevSecOps automation? Where are you at with, you know, your quality engineering and automated testing? Where are you at with your architectural pattern standardization? How much friction is there in how developers work with the platform and the tools that they have? And so, it's understanding where you're at, and then quickly, then, saying, okay, cool. Like, you know, you're pretty good here. You're good here. Ooh, here, we need to accelerate you through this. Because what's happening is, like, wherever one of those constraints is... Let's just say that it's regression testing. It's manual regression testing, is your constraint. Do you have a good solid framework? Do you have the patterns? Do you have to change behavior? Like, what are the things that are standing in the way of you adopting that? And then getting that, what's your regression testing, you know, today? Is it on the order of weeks? Is it on the order of months? And then, let's compress that down. Like, now we're going to get it down to the order of hours and minutes. And then we're going to accelerate you through that. And, if we need to do coaching, because we've got to change behavior, and that takes time, and the best way to do that is through coaching, then we can do coaching with that. And then we're going to get you through that. And now it's going to be part of the way that you just operate. It's going to be part of your normal operating model. And now, you can now move past that problem. So that's what I'm saying, is like, in working with us, that's part of what we do. And, we are a little insistent in just, hey, we need to get to some baseline level of maturity for us to be effective. For your dollar to go as far as you're expecting it to go with us, this is what we're doing to make that go even further. You know? And so, when you work with us, like, we've got a set of accelerators that we're, you know, again, if you're talking about cloud adoption and you're talking about infrastructure as code, if you're talking about architectural reference patterns, developer portal, adoption of AI and ML and all of the the stuff, the opportunities in that space, not just from what it can do for your product, but also what it can do for your developers. So that's what... Working through all that frictionless foundation stuff quickly, and accelerating through that. And then that enables us to now, now we've got a mechanism to work, where what we're doing is, we're stealing back all of this time that's lost and trapped right now in overhead. It's activity that has nothing to do with getting you toward an outcome. And the more of that time that you steal back, to take it away from stuff that's just, like, toil, manual process, the stuff that, like, just is stuff that has to be done to make the machine work. Instead of replacing that activity, of making the machine work through manual brute force, we're going to replace it with just automation and let the automation do it. We're going to replace that piece of toil with an AI model. And now you're going to get that time back. Your people are going to get that time back. And that's what this is really about. When you're talking about that friction, is like, I'm recapturing time. Time for my people to spend it on innovation and driving the product forward and solving hard problems. Not just, I want to come in and be a cog in the wheel that just, like, you know, moves the thing through or whatever it does to manual process. But people are looking for that innovative work, that engaging work. The tough, challenging problems to be solving. Like, that's really where they want to be spending their time. You gotta free them up from that other toil. Because those things that are toil, like, they're going to seem like they're really important and they probably are really urgent. They're not important. So, like, let's get more of that stuff delegated to automation, delegate it to, you know, AI. And get the focus back on that innovation and real business value-add.

Clinton: Yeah. I think a great way to land the episode is to maybe say, you know, take that, Bill Gates. Right? So, we can actually do quite a bit in that one year. And... But it's also a challenge, right? It's a rallying cry to those enterprises that don't yet feel that way, but they know they want to. They understand. They want to get to that feeling of that perpetual momentum. And that's what the book is all about. So, Nate, really cool to have you on again after the book has been live, just to talk about what's... What are you seeing out there? And what are the reactions and what are the conversations it's spurring? Because I knew there'd be value in those as well. And, at least some of the wrinkles, too, of authorship. And, what's that like? And lessons you've learned there, too. So, I hope that the catalyst audience enjoyed both of those flavors today. And really, really thank you for coming back on the pod. And remember, folks, grab Nate's book, get the free digital copy of Frictionless Enterprise. You can go to Launch.NTT Data.com. Find it there. But if you want to get it on Kindle too, just go to Amazon.com, type in Frictionless Enterprise. You'll see it there. It's a very nominal fee. Audiobook coming out soon. And if you want a physical copy, if you are a listener and you want a physical copy, write me. Send me an email. Clinton.Bonner@NTT Data.com. We will get you a physical copy. Heck, it might even be signed. We gotta see if Nate could do that. But we'd love to get some of those out there as well. So Nate, thank you so much to you for coming on and just, you know, laying into this and really going another layer deeper as the book has hit the market. Really do appreciate you coming on the Catalyst pod.

Nate: Yeah. You're very welcome. Thanks for having me.

Clinton: Of course. Always appreciate having you on, there, Nate. Remember, folks, in this studio, we believe in shipping software over slideware, that fast will follow smooth, and aiming to create digital experiences that move millions is a very worthy pursuit. Join us next time as the pursuit continues on Catalyst, the Launch by NTT Data podcast.

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