Gina Trapani: I love that you are, like, you know, looking to go out on dates, but we're really thinking about your constituents. (Laughs)

Chris LoSacco: Yeah.

Gina: And how that could help them. I absolutely love that.

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Chris: Welcome to Catalyst, the Launch by NTT Data podcast. I am Chris LoSacco and I am joined in the studio today, as always, by my business partner Gina Trapani. Gina, how are you

Gina: Hey, Chris. I'm great. We made it through the eclipse. Post eclipse.

Chris: We're post-eclipse.

Gina: We're post-eclipse. A little bit of let down. It's like that postpartum, like, oh. That happened.

Chris: Right. Now the next one is in like 20 years, so set your countdown clock.

Gina: Yeah, yeah. So we can start getting ready for that. Yeah, yeah. Put the glasses in a really special place so you remember where you stored them.

Chris: We're just going to have to buy new glasses next time. Let's be real.

Gina: We're going to have to buy new glasses. I guess so.

Chris: So Gina, we have a very special guest with us in the studio today. 

Gina: And a client. I love taking to clients.

And a client, who created something that is really kind of incredible and cool. And we're going to talk about its origin story and how it came to be. So let me introduce this person. She is the founder and CEO of the Bone Marrow and Cancer Foundation, and also the creator of the CancerBuddy app, Christina Merrill. Christina, thank you so much for being here.

Christina: Great to be with you both.

Chris: Yeah.

Christina: I'm excited to talk about CancerBuddy.

Chris: We have a lot to cover, so can we... Let's start at the beginning. Can you give us a little bit of background about the foundation? So, what is it and why did you create it?

Christina: The Bone Marrow and Cancer Foundation was founded in 1992, 32 years ago. And I'm a social worker and started in the hospital system, working with... Specifically with bone marrow transplant patients when it was a kind of last resort therapy for many diagnoses, such as leukemia and lymphoma and diseases like that. Over the years, we have pivoted to providing care and support to all cancer patients that are going through any sort of traditional cancer therapy, such as chemotherapy or radiation or surgery. We provide lots of assistance such as financial support, educational information, caregiver support, survivor support, peer connection with other patients, and also support kind of navigating through the hospital system for the patients and the families.

Gina: Christina, you founded this foundation in 1992. You've been at this since 1992. Do I have that... I have that right?

Christina: Yes.

Gina: I feel akin to you because I know you're a New Yorker, and I know that you worked in Memorial Sloan Kettering, which is a, you know, famous and, you know, top tier cancer center here in New York City. And it's just... What made you decide to go this route and to dedicate your life and your career to this?

Christina: Well, it was definitely working with the patients and the families. And at first, I started my career out as a social worker at Sloan Kettering, doing an internship and doing my work when I was at Columbia University in social work school. And then I also then continued my work at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City. Just working with these pediatric and adult patients is life-changing.

Gina: Yeah.

Christina: To see them in such crisis and in need. And they are... You know, their lives are being saved by a bone marrow transplant, and it's a very lengthy and hard treatment to go through.

Chris: Sure.

Christina: Especially 32 years ago.

Chris: Yeah. What I think is incredible about what the foundation does... I mean, obviously, first and foremost it's about the patients. But you mentioned several other groups that, you know, as you were talking about the ways you provide assistance, it's the patients, yes, but it's also the support networks around the patients.

Christina: Yep.

Chris: Which I think is really amazing. And this is a slightly off-topic. We're going to talk about CancerBuddy in a second, but... Can you just talk a little bit about your partnership with Airbnb? Because when we were talking about that, I found that fascinating.

Christina: So, over the years, some of the largest needs of families are travel and accommodations. Because a lot of families are in rural areas or they need to go out of state for the treatment that they need, specifically for their diagnosis. And they want to bring the whole family, even their pets, because they are about to be kind of uplifted and transplanted to a new city.

Chris: Yeah.

Christina: And there's a total deficit when it comes to housing and accommodations for these families. Let alone, they can't afford it.

Chris and Gina: Right.

Christina: So, many patients just opt not to go if they don't have, they can't bring the family or their caregivers with them. And I met the co-founder, Joe Gebbia, of Airbnb, and told him about this issue. And he said let's do something together. And he offered us, for two years, it was 2019 and then 2020, and we did almost 2 million in housing for cancer patients to travel.

Gina: Amazing.

Chris: Wow.

Christina: And be close to their medical treatment centers.

Gina: That is amazing. And of course, during that time you want your people near you and you need to get the treatments. You know... That you need to be near the place where you're going to get your, you know..

Christina: And during Covid, you couldn't stay in a hotel. 

Chris and Gina: Right.

Chris: Or you couldn't stay with other people, so, or in a communal space. You needed to be isolated by yourself. So the Airbnb program was... It was called Open Homes. And it was just wonderful and amazing, because families could stay together and be in their own little unit and pod, and not be exposed to anybody else. So, it was really life saving during that time, and I'm hoping to somehow bring it back. Because we still have the platform, the Airbnb Open Homes platform that they created for medical stays, but we don't have the funding. So I'm actually, that's one of my projects.

Gina: Mhm.

Chris: Goals for the future.

Gina: Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is the thing about this kind of diagnosis is that, not only is your future and your health... Like, not only is your whole sort of life upended from all that perspective of, like, mortality, and am I going to make it? And what's going to happen? But you're just in utter financial turmoil, right?

Christina: Yes.

Gina: Like, the the whole rug gets pulled out. 

Christina: Yeah. All of a sudden you're faced with, like, a new job in your life.

Gina: Yes.

Christina: Like, that you have no skills, you have no degree in. And you're thrown into this situation where you don't even know, you never even heard about the diagnosis, possibly, of what you've just been, you know, presented with.

Gina: Right.

Christina: And then there's the whole financial barrier and emotional and support and caregiver issues. And it just is, the list is long.

Gina: Yeah. I had, you know, a close family member dealing with cancer was treated at Sloan-Kettering. And I used to talk about how... I would call it Planet Cancer, because it was, like, a different... You went to this completely different place where time, like, went more slowly and differently, and you look at other people on the street and be like, oh, you're just living your life. Like, you've got your regular life. But I'm here on Planet Cancer.

Chris: Yeah.

Christina: Like, you kind of feel... I would talk about, like, oh, I feel like an astronaut. Just sort of, you know, weightless, like, in orbit, like looking down at Earth, being like, oh, remember when I used to live on that, you know, beautiful blue planet?

Christina: It's true.

Gina: It's a completely different state of mind. And I think that, you know, this idea of having your people close to you, and your pets, is so important. And really, this kind of brings us to CancerBuddy, to the app. And so, I'm curious if you could tell us a little bit about what gave you the idea for CancerBuddy?

Christina: Yeah. So, in 2001, I had a program called Support Line, and it was connecting patients to mentors. So, somebody had already gone through the whole journey and now was giving back to the newly diagnosed and helping them kind of navigate and give support. And that could be from patient to patient, or caregiver to caregiver, or survivor to patient or so forth. So from that program... But it was really arduous and, and hard to connect patients because of HIPAA regulations. And you had to get everybody's permission. And the hospital social workers and nurses and doctors are at full capacity, so they're just trying to do the medical piece, and they're not so much worried about the support system of the patient. They're more focused on chemotherapy or treatment or what the course of treatment is going to be. But we see from years of studying peer support in all areas of care that this is a really important area for health outcomes and support and people navigating new experiences. So I had this incredible program and it was doing very well, but we were connecting maybe only, you know, 100 patients a year. I just thought, I need to somehow build a platform that will.

Gina: Scale.

Christina: Accommodate... Scale, right. And help, eventually, millions of people. So, in 2020, I was going through a divorce. 

Gina: Right there in the middle of the pandemic. That must have been a time. (Laughs)

Chris: Yeah.

Christina: Exactly. When it rains, it pours, right?

Gina: I guess so.

Christina: But actually, prior to that, in 2018-19, it was kind of, that's when my whole journey started down the divorce route. And I started going on these dating apps. Just thinking, how am I going to meet anybody? I always thought, oh, my girlfriends will introduce me to people and so forth. So I thought, okay, I'm just going to, you know... And I was waiting around for all my friends to say, oh, you know, I have this great, you know, guy I'll introduce you to. That didn't happen.

Gina: That wasn't working? (Laughs)

Christina: That wasn't working, so I took it into my own hands and I...

Gina: You went on the internet. (Laughs)

Christina: Yep, I went on the internet. You know, all these different dating apps. And I started to think, oh my God, this is... Bells went off in my head and light bulbs, and I was thinking, oh my God, this is the most incredible platform and technology to meet people and to be matched with others. And so then I thought, oh. It just dawned on me, like, I have to do this for the cancer community. So that they can find their own peers and find the perfect match to help them through their experience. That's how it all happened. So I... Specifically one dating app that I went on that really resonated with me was Bumble. And I had some friends that knew the different executive team at Bumble, so I reached out and I spoke with them, and had a few meetings, and just started thinking, okay, I'm going to do this myself. And I came up with the concept of this app, then found, you know, an incredible design team.

Chris: Was the executive team of Bumble supportive of the path? 

Christina: Yes. They thought it was incredible. At the time they were going public. Whitney Herd, the CEO, was having a baby and, you know...

Gina: (Laughs) Oh man. 

Christina: Stuff was going on in their world. And so, they said they couldn't really... Because I thought at first, oh, I'm going to see if they can, if I can use their platform and see if they can kind of adjust and have their platform for us.

Gina: Like, white label it. Or...

Christina: Exactly. But that wasn't going to work, so they just said, you know, we think it's an incredible opportunity for you, and go for it, to build something.

Gina: Right. So CancerBuddy is, it's a matchmaking app. It's the place to find somebody who is... Kind of, what is either as ahead of you on the path or with you kind of on the path, right? Because the thing about cancer, right? There's so many different kinds of diagnoses and treatments, and people are at different stages in their lives, and different ages and different locations, right? And so, it's a way to say, like, I just want to find my people who are also on this planet with me, which is very lonely. (Laughs)

Christina: And also, another really important aspect is ethnicity and race.

Gina: Yeah.

Christina: The African American population are very vulnerable when it comes to medical care. So, this community really needs to have a tremendous amount of support and reinforcement that it's going to be okay.

Gina: Yeah.

And so, for them to be able to go on to CancerBuddy and put in what their race is, what their ethnicity is, it's an amazing ability for them to be able to find each other. So it's also really good for different communities. And also for the AYA, for the adolescent and young adult population. You know, they're not used to getting cancer, right?

Gina: Right.

Christina: It's not something that you would think that a young person would be faced with. So, they have no ability to try to navigate this by themselves. And many of these young adults are by themselves, and, you know, they don't have the support system. So, to be able to find each other on an app is just... I've seen the response and it's life-changing.

Gina: You've got an amazing video interview with two young people who have connected on the app. We'll post a link to the website in our show notes. Where they talked about this, right? Like, I, you know, I was in my 20s and I had cancer. Like, who... And that's, I mean, that's such a formative time in your life. And they connected and they've got this, you know, lifelong friendship now. Because, you know, we all know bonds are forged, you know...

Chris: Yeah.

Gina: I think it's in some of the hardest times in our lives.

Christina: Yeah.

Gina: It's such an incredible success story. So, Christina, you've got this relatively small nonprofit foundation, right? And you're like, I'm, you know, funneling money directly to families. I'm helping patients. I'm helping caregivers. I'm hustling for partnerships. I'm trying to get housing. And then you had this idea for the CancerBuddy app. And you decided to go for it. And, you know, apps aren't inexpensive to build, they're not a small commitment. And I love this, because I love that you said that you had this program that was succeeding and connecting hundreds of people, but you felt like there's so... I could reach so many more people if I leverage the power of the internet. And the fact that this connected for you... So I'm curious. I mean, I know your background is social work and health care and nonprofit, what was this process like for you? I know that you worked with a firm to design CancerBuddy, it's beautifully designed. And then worked with us to build it. What was that like for you? What was the process like for you, and what did you learn? Were you surprised by anything?

Christina: Well, it was a huge commitment. In time, and not only time, but money. And I was so committed and knew this was just 100% going to be successful and what patients needed. And the cancer community. So, having that confidence in something that I wanted to go forward on with the project like this was kind of half the battle. And then, speaking with, we did focus groups. And I went out and raised all the money. I was so, you know, passionate about this area that it ended up not being really difficult to raise the money because it was so clearly demonstrated by research and information about peer support that it all kind of fell together. And I had a great team. You know, I had a great information officer, and then we did a lot of focus groups with patients, survivors, social workers, nurses and physicians. So we really did... we did those focus groups all through our nine months of building and designing the app.

Chris: Getting all those different user groups and having them input into, you know, what was ultimately going to serve them.

Christina: Yes.

Chris: Like how close was where you ended up to where you started? Like, did you... Because I know you had this vision, right? When you were doing the dating apps, you were like, I could see how this could come together. Were you mostly right? Or did you... Or do you feel like you learned a lot during that design process that led you off in different directions?

Christina: I definitely learned a lot. Because I was like, you know, wanting to throw everything but the kitchen sink into the project.

Chris: Yep.

Gina: (Laughs)

Christina: You know, of, like, oh, the patients need this and the caregivers need this. And my design team were really, you know, keeping me very focused.

Gina: That's a good design team.

Chris: Yeah. Management.

Christina: Yeah. And I did convince them to do a few things that they were like, at first, like, no, we can't go there. Like, I want to do it for caregivers, survivors and patients in one app. And they were first saying, oh, we should do it in three separate apps. And through our focus groups we realized, no, it was one app, and you could go into the app as a caregiver, patient or survivor. So you can enter the app as one of these different individuals. That was, you know, a great kind of process that we went through.

Chris: Yep.

Christina: But, yes. And then we keep doing iterations with your team, your developers to, you know, really hone down on different areas that we think, oh, wow, that will be great, you know, to add this feature. So it's always, like, a work in progress.

Gina: I mean, as any good digital product is. 

Chris: That's the thing. 

Gina: It's always evolving. I think that it is the sign of a really good product leader when you've got that confidence and vision that you had. It doesn't surprise me that it wasn't hard to raise the money, because I think that if you have a, you know, qualified founder, which you were, because you had decades of experience in this space, and someone with, like, a clear vision, then it's like, of course. Of course I'm going to fund that. Whether you're a VC or philanthropist, right? You're like, oh yeah, okay, of course I'm going to do that. But I think a sign of a really great product leader is that you have that vision, and I know, I can tell that you just were like, I know this is going to work. But also, I think a big mistake people people make is, they don't do the focus groups, right?

Chris: Mhm. Right.

Gina: So also, being open to speaking to those users. And, like, I love that you pressure tested... Right? The design team pressure tested this idea. Wait, should it be one app? Maybe it should be three apps. And then you went to focus groups, right? Like, you were both convinced of your vision, but also open to hearing, you know, what users really, really want. I think that, you know, sometimes, you know, product leaders tend to go farther in one direction versus the other, and it's really a balance, right? You really do have to pressure test your assumptions and go to where the users are and what they're telling you, what they want.

Christina: Absolutely. And I had an entire design team for nine months that we had hired. It was, you know, all hands on deck. 

Gina: The entire time was intense?

Christina: That entire time, intense, yeah. Just... Even holidays or whatever, because I knew that they were then going to be off the project. So we had to get it really done for that, in that scope of time. So that was really a great, also, frame. Because there was no... You know, taking breaks or floundering, you know, in one area. It was really focused.

Gina: Yeah. A deadline is a magical thing. (Laughs) It's a real forcing function.

Chris: It is. Yep.

Gina: It makes you make decisions and just keep forward momentum, for sure.

Chris: Well, it sounds like your design process was very active. Meaning it wasn't like, oh, you know, let's make some mockups and then we'll send them over and please get us feedback in the next two weeks and then we'll do another revision. It sounds like it was much more collaborative, right? Between you and the team, and also with potential users.

Christina: Yes. We were always, you know, tremendous number of Zooms every day. Or, you know, working with focus groups, or, you know, texting each other about a question. It was really active and involved. And I got very attached to my whole team.

Chris: Yeah.

Christina: You know, when it was over, I'm like, really? Like, I kind of...

Chris: That's it? (Laughs)

Gina: You're going to go away now? What? (Laughing) We're in this together! Right. Well, that's a great partnership. That's how it should be, right? That hands-on collaborative vibe. Yeah, that's great.

Chris: To go back to the dating app thing for a second, how much did you want to pattern the matching and the algorithm off of something that already existed, versus create, like, a new paradigm or a new interface? Because I could see arguments both ways, and I'm curious how that evolved.

Christina: Well, I kind of focused on one app, but then I used a lot of other apps to, you know, really learn from them and thought, oh, that's a really great feature or concept. And so we definitely built off of the features of many of these dating apps. But we also created our, you know, specifically our own features for, you know, our community. But it was definitely, you know, something that was, you know, this brilliant platform that has already been tested. 

Chris: Right.

Christina: And successful, and with millions and millions of people on these dating apps. And this is how most of young people and middle-aged people and elderly people are meeting each other.

Chris: Exactly.

Christina: It's really incredible.

Chris: Well, I think what's great about that is, there's some built in familiarity with these interfaces.

Christina: Yes.

Chris: And these paradigms that you're leveraging, right? So that when someone gets this diagnosis... And again, as we were talking about before, it's like... Your head spins and you're like, oh my God, I'm in a completely different place right now. So then, as you're thinking about, okay, how do I go forward? Let me think about connecting with others. You don't have to relearn something now. You don't have to go, oh, well, I need to figure out this whole new platform. It's like, no, this is something that is accessible to me because I already know what this, how this works. Which I think is really smart.

Christina: Yeah, it's very familiar to people. And I always do preface with funders or, you know, doctors and nurses and social workers and our community, that it's not, you know, to find love. That might happen on the app. But it's really to find that peer support that's been validated in health care systems and all different sorts of, you know, focus groups.

Gina: Yeah, and I mean, that's kind of the key difference. Like, a dating app... Not everybody, but many people are looking to find their one person and they get, you know, and if they find that one person, like... The idea is like, this app is going to achieve a thing for me, and then I'm going to stop being a user because I found my person, right?

Chris: Right.

Christina: Yeah.

Gina: Whereas CancerBuddy, or any sort of, you know, purpose-built community app is like, I'm walking a path, an unusual path, and I don't know anybody else on this path. And I just really want to walk this path with someone else who understands.

Christina: Yeah.

Gina: Which is really, really so powerful. And that's why, you know, it's something that you use, you know, for a long time. Because basically, once you get cancer or someone in your family does, that's part of your life forever.

Chris: That's right.

Gina: Even when you've, you know, completely recovered. 

Christina: Survivorship.

Gina: Yes.

Christina: You know, people... You know, are always amazed that they, you know, go through this intensive treatment and these connections with the nurses and the social workers and their doctors. And then all of a sudden they're just like, okay, bye. You did great.

Chris: (Laughs) Right.

Christina: You know, have a good life.

Gina: Yes.

Christina: But it's not like that at all. It's, oh my God, you're letting me go and I don't know what to do next.

Gina: Right.

Chris: Yeah. That's a whole other, like, phase of weirdness that you then have to adjust to.

Gina: Totally. (Laughs)

Chris: Yeah.

Gina: Totally. I think a question folks might ask is, you know, why not... I mean, we have Facebook for this, right? Like, why not like, we have Facebook groups, there's got to be a ton of cancer groups. Or, you know, forums. Like, I'm curious... I mean, I feel like I know the answer, but I'm curious, like, what your answer to that would be, Christina. Because there's something unique about this setup.

Christina: If you go into a Facebook, you know, group, you meet other people in that Facebook group for your diagnosis, but you're not... There's no filters. You're not doing that individual connection. You know, that private connection where you're, you know, swiping, quote unquote, or you're connecting on all the different filters. Let's say I want to meet another woman, you know, in her 50s that has breast cancer, that was treated at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. You know, I want to meet the caregiver, you know, that's going through it right now with somebody that, you know...

Gina: Or the spouse.

Christina: Or the spouse.

Gina: Which is a whole other experience. Yeah.

Christina: Or a teenager. I want to meet another senior going through, you know, Hodgkin's lymphoma that lives in, you know...

Gina: Iowa. (Laughs)

‍Christina: You know, Iowa. Exactly. So it's just, yeah. So it's just, it's not going to happen on a Facebook group. And also we have hosted groups on our app that are all professionally hosted, and we're monitoring that. And so we're giving education and information as well. And we also have resources that we're offering patients and caregivers and survivors. And so there's much more to it than just a Facebook group that you're joining.

Gina: Right. I mean, the entire experience is designed to understand where you are on this particular journey.

Chris: Exactly.

Christina: Right. Yeah.

Gina: There's nothing more powerful than a shared experience, you know? So when you see someone who's just got diagnosed, you're like, oh. And you're a survivor, you're like, oh right, I remember that. And you approach that person with a particular mindset. Like, I know that your world just got turned upside down and I have a deep, a connection and empathy for you, you know, that you just don't get for a more, in a more, you know, general setting. In general, I think purpose-built communities for vulnerable populations, I'm thinking about trans kids, I'm thinking about anyone who's gone through, like, any sort of trauma or shared, you know, situation, natural disaster or whatever. Like, it's very powerful... Like, very powerful connections happen there. That's harder... Some people manage to make it happen in Facebook groups. But the thing about CancerBuddy is that it's really designed, and when you sign up, you know, you put your age, gender, location, diagnosis, you know, treatment center, race, all those things, right? And because it's certainly a huge part of your identity, why you're going through the experience. But even after, you know, as a survivor, it's always sort of a little bit of a part of your identity. So you get to identify that way. And so I think that makes those connections easier to make and more powerful.

Chris: Yeah. But it's part of your identity in a way that is very, like, intimate and personal versus like, oh, you know, my favorite color is blue.

Gina: I like skiing. Right. (Laughs)

Chris: Right. It's not... I feel like Facebook, again, I'm generalizing here, but it's like, very surface-level. You know, I'm presenting a certain facade to the world through this profile.

Gina: Yes. Yep.

Chris: And I think... 

Gina: Dating too. Dating apps too, right?

Chris: Absolutely. And I think what is so great about having something like CancerBuddy, that is a defined space is that it's like, no, we're going to strip some of that away in the name of connection, right? And I think it lends a safety to feeling like, okay, I can come in here and be honest about what I'm going through because other people are going through it too.

Christina: Exactly. And also, we're a well-established nonprofit cancer organization that has been providing support to families for 32-plus years.

Chris: Right, decades. Yeah.

Christina: And it's a secure area. People feel confident. Okay, I'm going into this app, it's not... And it's all free. So, you know, patients are downloading the app. It's all free usage. And so, it's there for the support.

Gina: Christina I'm sure that most, a lot of people listening to the show have, you know, if not experienced a diagnosis themselves, had, know someone or have been, you know, a friend or a family member. So where can folks go to find CancerBuddy and to recommend it and share it with others?

Christina: Well, you can download it from iOS, from the Apple Store or from the Google Play Store. So it's in both operating systems. And then, you know, we're getting different partnerships, you know, out there at all the different cancer centers around the United States. It's currently just in the United States. It's not international yet, but that's, you know, our goal is to get it to be international. I mean, I get messages on LinkedIn from doctors from Germany and France and Italy just saying, when is this coming to our country?

Chris: Oh wow. Yeah.

Christina: Because this is powerful.

Gina: CancerBuddy's great. Thank you for, you know, just making that leap into making the commitment. And the, you know, the financial and the time commitment that it takes to make something that I think is so important. I really wish that my family member had been handed CancerBuddy, you know, while she was in the recovery room and said, hey, sign up for that. Let's get you to that spot. I think it's a really important, important thing. I think that part of patient care is connecting people and helping them feel not alone. That's, you know, as important as having your beloved pet with you... (Laughs) Near your treatment center.

Chris: Exactly.

Christina: Yeah, it's definitely our tagline to CancerBuddy is that CancerBuddy will help people feel, you know, a little less alone while they're going through this new experience that is, you know, it's a scary, scary experience for most people.

Chris: That is a great place to end it. Christina, thank you so much for talking about this whole process with us and for sharing it with more of the world. And I would encourage people, again, Gina mentioned it earlier, but there's a great video that talks about one of the real stories from a connection that was made on CancerBuddy and we will link it up so that people can watch it, because it is... It's worth your seven minutes or however long that video is. So, thanks again, Christina, we really appreciate it. And if you are interested, please go find... You know, if it's applicable to your world, CancerBuddy is on the app stores where you can go download it, and if you're interested in talking more about the process or want to go behind the scenes of building an application like this, please reach out to us. We are happy to talk to you. Thank you and thanks, Gina. And we'll see you again soon.

Gina: Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Christina. This was really fun. We appreciate your time.

Christina: Thank you. It was great.

Gina: Bye, everybody. Have a great day.

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