Tammy Soares: You know what? I'm just going to hand over the podcast to you. Like, guys, we're going to scrap it being my podcast moving forward, it's going to be Chappell's.

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(CATALYST INTRO MUSIC)

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Tammy: Hey everybody, welcome to Catalyst, the Launch by NTT Data podcast. I'm your host, Tammy Soares. At Launch, I get to work with some of the most incredible companies and organizations to create digital products that hopefully improve lives and solve problems and make a difference. But, this show isn't about what we do. It's about the people. The people making it happen, the leaders who are shaping the future. So today's guest is Chappell Ellison. She is such a refreshing and honest voice in an industry that I find is often clouded by jargon and complexity. She is a strategist, a designer, a writer, and even a coder a little bit. And she just brings this level of clarity and authenticity to the work that she does. And, I think, just cuts through the noise with a perspective that is sharp but also really thoughtful. I have the pleasure of working with her at Launch. She's our Director of Digital Strategy and Strategic Growth, and her career really spans roles from creative agencies like Huge, working in public service for New York City. She teaches at the School of Visual Arts, and she's also an award-winning writer. So, she just is a superstar, rock star, does everything. But, what I admire most is how she approaches her work with authenticity. She challenges the status quo. And in doing that, she also is able to maintain this really amazing sense of humor and balance. So today, we're going to explore how Chappell navigates the challenges of corporate life while staying true to herself. How does she keep up that level of creativity and that humor intact? And how it all influences the way that she works. So I can't wait to dive into this conversation. Welcome to the show, Chappell.

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Chappell Ellison: Thank you. That is quite the introduction, and I endeavor to live up to it in any capacity. (Laughs)

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Tammy: I have no doubt... I have no doubt that you will. Anyone who knows that I was about to come talk to you has heard about how excited I was to tear up this podcast with you. So...

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Chappell: (Laughs)

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Tammy: (Laughing) ...Really excited to have you here.

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Chappell: Well, let's do it. Let's go.

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Tammy: Alright. Let's go. So, I want to start by talking to you about the viral post that you had on X, that I think really highlights some of what I talked to you about in the intro. So, for our listeners, this is what her post said: "When I was a little girl..." I'm using my voice now, by the way, Chappell, so this is how I read it in my mind, okay?

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Chappell: Sure.

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Tammy: "When I was a little girl, I always dreamed of growing up to satisfy user needs in a way that meets business goals for transformative outcomes." And... I think it perfectly captures, sort of, the absurdity of corporate jargon. And it kind of points at something deeper. I also, when I noticed the date of when it was posted, it might have been around the time that you and I were working together on the Launch value proposition. And so, I immediately turned it inward to me. But... Tell me about what inspired the post, and did you expect it to resonate the way that it did?

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Chappell: Oh, God no. I mean, that's the thing, is that, like, when it comes to social media, everyone acts like you can create strategies and plans and make something go viral. You can't. You're... Your dumbest tweet, or whatever we're calling it now, a Xeet? I have no idea.

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Tammy: I don't know.

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Chappell: Your dumbest tweet is what succeeds. It always is. It's like, that's how the internet works. There's no... There's no rhyme or reason sometimes. I've had posts, several posts in the past, go, at least viral for me. I'm not a celebrity by any means. But, you know, they'll get a lot of views. And people always ask me, like, how did... How do you get that strategy? How did you...? You should do this for a company. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

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Tammy: (Laughs)

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Chappell: There is no way to predict. And doing this for a company is very challenging. Because I'm just me. I can take all the risk. I'm me. I'm not going to risk a company. And when I wrote that tweet, I probably was like, half dead in bed, and just shot that tweet into the atmosphere and didn't think about it. And then I woke up the next day and was like, oh, no. And I was actually, honestly, a little afraid, because I know my Twitter account is public, but like, my... My lizard brain doesn't. Like, it just thinks it's a little hole like in the woods that I can yell into.

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Tammy: Mhm.

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Chappell: And so... Yeah, I kind of forget. And then I sat there going, you know, a lot of really important people I respect follow me. Including, like, employers. (Laughs) And past employers. And like, fortunately, I think I've made decent choices in my life, and I work with people who can see the humor in that tweet. And if I didn't, I would be a lot more sad. To kind of say, like, what maybe inspired it, I don't know. Yes, we were working on the Launch brand prop. I do so much business writing. And I think we can both say, two opposing things about our kind of work, which is, one, we really love it and there's so much great, earnest desire to make things better. But we also have to talk the talk and speak this language that is truly sometimes laughable. And  so vague. It's so vague. And that's what bums me out sometimes, is we don't realize by mimicking each other and speaking this... It's almost a tribal language in the corporate world. It's so vague. And that's, that comes from a place of wanting to de-risk.

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Tammy: Yeah, absolutely. So ,when you said you were afraid, like, I know, I saw it on LinkedIn. So you actually shared a screenshot of it on LinkedIn, and I remember you said something like, hopefully I'm not getting fired from this. And I jumped in and said, nope, not going to fire you, I think it's awesome. Were you genuinely afraid? Or are you just...

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Chappell: I... You know, in a way, no.

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Tammy: Okay. 

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Chappell: Because I know you. And I know you're, like... You're down to clown. You know what I mean? Like, you're... I know you're cool. And I... And honestly, if you were the type to, like, quote-unquote, call me in your office and fire me over a tweet, this is probably not a company I should be working at.

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Tammy: (Laughs) That's true.

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Chappell: At first I was fine, because most people ignore my Twitter and don't know that that's, like, another world of me. But then, one of our wonderful lead engineers, who I love dearly, at our company, posted it on, like, a general Slack channel, and it got to the point where it started getting picked up on LinkedIn and Instagram from all sorts of accounts, that I was like, okay, I should go on LinkedIn, at least post a bit about this, and like... Because I don't want to come off as a total court jester. But I think it's important to be critical of our industry, and the way we talk, and know that, like, we are all kind of playing a game, here. And that's okay. Almost everything in life, I'm fine with playing the game, so long as we're honest about it being a game that we all need to engage in to earn a living, and to do good things.

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Tammy: I mean, I think... I've even had folks on our executive leadership team talk about how funny you are on LinkedIn, and the posts that you write. So, I'm just curious how you see humor fitting in to your approach to work. Like, is that something... I mean, you're obviously very funny, just in the person that you are. Like, your humor is amazing.

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Chappell: (Laughs) Thank you.

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Tammy: But how do you think about that and use that in the way that you approach work?

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Chappell: I think at the end of the day, I have to use humor as a way to back away from letting an idea or a situation overwhelm me and scare me. It's sort of like my, you know, at the beginning of Zelda, like, here, take this sword. It's kind of my own personal weapon for navigating life. And so... You know, like, LinkedIn is a funny place, because it is filled with some optimism. Like, yay, I got a new job, or look at this cool thing I wrote. But it is sometimes very sad and serious. There's been horrible layoffs. There are people trying to get employed. It can be a really tough place. And so, I try to just... If I ever post in there, which I don't much, I just try to be a tiny bit of levity. I'm not trying to diminish a serious situation like finding a job.

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Tammy: Mhm.

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Chappell: But it's more like, you know, we also need to laugh at how crazy this world is that we've built, in which we all have to get a job to earn money, to eat food. And like, having a laugh every now and then is fine. And I try to make it about work. I'm not, like, posting random stuff on LinkedIn. At least not yet.

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Tammy: (Laughs) The PowerPoint Princess, your PowerPoint Princess one was great. And I think, like, what you're pointing out a little bit is, like, what I call armor. Like, it sounds like, to me, what you're saying is, like, humor is a bit of, like, the armor that you put on to be able to sort of... I don't want to say protect you, but in a little bit, protect you from situations that are maybe a bit uncomfortable, or concerning to you. And that's something, definitely, that I, you know, I definitely put on my own sort of armor to go into certain situations, and, you know, not to be infallible, but just to be able to be... My armor is actually overpreparedness. So if I've got a really big presentation that I'm going to be doing on stage, I mean, I will be pacing my hotel room for the hour before.

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Chappell: Right.

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Tammy: Having had memorized it three days earlier. Like, that's my armor. Like, I just have to completely overprepare. So it sounds like that's what you're saying.

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Chappell: Yeah. And you also, you know, you also actually have, like, what I call, like, a point of view. In the way you show up and the way you dress and present yourself. Like, do you think that also, too, is part of feeling yourself? AKA, like, being protected and going in fully armed?

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Tammy: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. So... I tell people. So I dropped speech 1A in college, like, five times. I think I have three W's on my transcripts, okay? Like, I frickin' hated it. And I would get through the first two speeches shaking at the podium, and then just go, like, I literally can't take it anymore. And so, you look at, like, what my role is now. Like, about... I'm gonna say about five years ago, I finally realized, like, I've got to figure something else out. Because I just go on stage and I'm just, I can't. I'm, like, trying to drink water, on the side of the podium and I have, you know, no saliva in my mouth. And it's horrific. And I finally realized, if I created this, like, version of me, almost like this separate brand, that was almost a performance. So, if I think about it as a performance instead of it being, like, actually Tammy standing up there on stage. And so, for me, that translates to, you know, what I'm wearing, how I look, how I show up, the way that I speak. And so, it's all me, but it's like a... Me times ten, if that makes sense.

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Chappell: Yeah.

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Tammy: So that it's almost like I'm standing outside myself to go and do it. And so, that's, sort of all part of it, for sure. Thanks for calling that out. I don't think I've ever told anybody that.

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Chappell: I mean, I always noted what you wore. Like, I don't tend to comment on... I have, like, a rule, don't comment on the body. But what you wear is, like, out there. And I come from, my mom's a costumer, I know how to sew. So when I see someone who actually has a point of view in their clothing, I get, like, really excited. So, that's why I had to ask you about it.

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Tammy: Yep.

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Chappell: But that also reminds me, like... I think... I know that, like, the goal, often, is to show up as your authentic self. And I think that's great. But then, like... I'll use an example, what this made me think of. So as any good strategist, I play Dungeons and Dragons a lot. Which is one of the best strategy games on earth. And I have two separate campaigns, two kind of groups. And each one has a very different character that I play. And I've been playing this character for years. So, one of the characters is a human woman who's very smart, has a very strange sense of humor, has, like, curly red hair. And then the other character is a six year old little frog boy. Now, guess which one is easier for me to play?

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Tammy: The frog boy?

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Chappell: 100%.

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Tammy: Yeah.

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Chappell: And that's what's so fascinating about life, is... The character, I realized that the human woman is so hard to play because she was my first character I made, and she's so like me.

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Tammy: Mhm.

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Chappell: And playing yourself is often terrifying. It's still a game, and you want to have fun, and it can be really hard to play a game, and you're also exploring your own reactions to a situation, even though it's fantasy. Whereas, that little frog boy, I'm having the time of my life. I'm a little boy running around the forest having a good time, and it's great. So, like... That is what's so funny about trying to be authentic in the workplace. Everyone's different. Some people feel very different in their workplace. You know, in ours, I... For us, we are probably very often the only women on a call, right?

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Tammy: Mhm.

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Chappell: And it's hard to sometimes show up as your authentic self. And sometimes, it's easier to just kind of perform.

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Tammy: Yeah.

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Chappell: You know?

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Tammy: Yeah. I mean, I think... So, authenticity is something that, like, I've said, you don't want everyone to be authentic, first of all. Like, jerks need to mask.

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Chappell: (Laughs)

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Tammy: I mean, let's face it. Jerks need to mask. They... I need them to mask. Like, I honestly can't. Like, I need you to mask. I don't want you to be your authentic self, like, because it's awful.

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Chappell: Yes.

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Tammy: But then that makes me the decider of what makes, what authenticity is good and what's bad. But I... I just think it's such an interesting thing. I try really, really hard to be myself and to be authentic. So, you know, even in, you know, I'm so bummed when I have these cute little, um, space buns on right now with pink in them.

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Chappell: Yep.

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Tammy: And you can't see them because of these giant purple headphones. And I was really struggling with that. I was like, hey, I put all this effort into these cute little buns, and now you can't see them. But that's me. Like, I love it, I love to play dress up, I almost feel like I'm a canvas every morning, I match my nails to my eyeshadow. It's just a way for me to express my creativity. So it is authentically me. And I think as I've gotten older, I've allowed more and more of that to come out. Like, if you... Almost to the age at this point where I speak to imposter syndrome the same way that I speak to people that don't like me, which is, well, take me or leave me, f off, I'm not going to pretend to be something that I'm not anymore.

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Chappell: Well, like, at what point do you feel like you learned that? You know, because I think one of the hardest things for me, still, is the fear of what other people might think of me. And I've learned to let go of that a ton. Like, I feel like, your 30s is, like, your time to learn to let go of that. And if you're lucky, you do. But I guess I wonder, like, when, at what point were you able to do that? And do you still catch yourself getting worried about what people are thinking? And do you have, like, a method for snapping out of it?

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Tammy: Oh my gosh, I definitely still have it. I definitely still, you know, I'm just thinking of the strategies. So, like, I did a lot of, I had a lot of executive coaching in my... Probably early 40s, mid-40s as I was kind of moving into my role as president of an agency. And I remember, like, my normal M.O. for my over-preparedness is, I'm preparing so much because I just know for sure it's going to go terribly. Like...

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Chappell: (Laughs)

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Tammy: ...I think of every single thing possible that could possibly go wrong. And I remember, my coach, I was talking to her about this big meeting that I had coming up, and I'm like, "and this could go wrong and that could go wrong." And she's like, what are some scenarios that could be, they're going to go right? Like, what are some of those scenarios? And so, I was like, oh. Well then this could happen, and then this could happen, and this could happen. And she's like, now tell me how many of these negative scenarios have ever happened to you? And I'm like, probably none. She's like, okay. So, it's actually, like, something that I do use. Like, when I'm getting ready for something and I sort of get into that, my headspace and start spinning around that, like, it is a technique that I will still use to this day that's like, alright, you've thought enough about, like, what could go wrong. Like, but what could go right? And it just kind of... it snaps you out of it. And I think it's a lot of self-awareness, and learning to be present in the moment, and really trying to be, like, out of my head. I think that's allowed me to sort of see the triggers. Like, there's like, little triggers that I can almost recognize now as they're happening, and I just can kind of reset myself. But I literally do tell the voice... I have a really negative self-talk. And so, I've learned that it's not, that's not actually me. And so, I will actually talk to it. And I will tell it to knock it off. Like, I wouldn't talk to anybody else in my life the way that I talk to myself. So, you can just stop now.

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Chappell: Oh yeah. We have definitely turned this into a therapy self-help podcast episode.

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Tammy: (Laughs)

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Chappell: But it's so true. It's so true. And I mean, that's... That is... And I do... Like, going back to the viral tweet stuff, is like, I caution people to even care about, like, having a tweet go viral. Like, I have friends who, when I do have a tweet go viral, they'll like, text me, and be like, you're famous now. And I'm like, it doesn't work that way.

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Tammy: Yeah.

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Chappell: I wish it did. I wish I got a paycheck for this. But, like... You can very easily upset people with the things you say. And it's like... You upset people and it's something you can't control. And it's because they're taking your words out of context and applying it to whatever they are frustrated with and dealing with in their own lives. And so, the fact is, people have gotten upset at me online. It is very hard for me to deal with. I, like, can't sleep over it. And these are pure strangers. And what I said might not have even been inflammatory, but that's the problem with social media, amongst many problems, is that you can take it out of context and turn it into this whole other argument that had nothing to do with what you originally said. And so, for me, I actually don't post online the way I used to. I'm much more selective. I think about it all the time. I... Like, in a client room... It's so funny that we have this illusion that we can actually control the room and what people think. And we can't. There's no way. But I want to live in a fantasy world in which I can.

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Tammy: (Laughs)

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Chappell: And that's where I live all the time. And that's honestly the only time I get mad at work. And I just... I stew inwardly. The only time I get mad is when I... That illusion of control in my mind is broken. When someone else in the room is acting out of turn, or in a way that I know, getting the room back in control is going to be very challenging. That, like, crushes me. I tend to... I feel like my best quality at work is, like, understanding what clients really need, not what they're asking for. And to be able to help them see that. Because often what clients need is, like, cheaper and faster than what they ask for.

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Tammy: Yeah.

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Chappell: And it's helping them see that. And it's so hard for me when, like, I'm not... Things get in the way and I'm not able to speak to the client in just a real way. To just be like, hey. Like, I know you came to ask for this thing, but you really need this thing. And so, like, yeah. There is, like... I guess some people refer to that as, like, a control issue, but I feel like literally everyone struggles with this. So, I don't know that it's an issue so much as a part of being a human.

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Tammy: 100%. One of the reasons you're really good at what you do is, you don't give up, first of all. And I think you're really good at understanding people, and then how to change, maybe, the way that you're talking about the idea, or talking, like... I've seen you get the room back, is what I'm trying to say. Maybe you can't always. But I do think that you have, like, the ability to draw people in and maybe change their point of view, or change their mind, or bring them around to, you know, influence them. Would you say that's accurate? I mean, I've seen it, but I don't know if that's something that you recognize, or...

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Chappell: It's so funny, because, like, a big part of what I do is sell work. I sell solutions. And the idea of calling myself a salesperson is nutso. I'm like, there's no way. I don't feel like that's me. But that's also because, like, my favorite thing in the world, when we get the opportunity to do it, is to tell a client, no. We're not... You don't need to build that thing. It is, like, pure joy to me to get to say that. And part of that is just, like, relationships with people are long-tail. It's not in that moment. I don't need to sell you a thing right now. I need to figure out what your problem is, and then actually help you. And I would rather help a person and sleep at night, and maybe we sell them something eventually that we can help them with. But I'm not gonna... I can't do it. It's... And that's, kind of goes back to like, the earnest thing, the earnesty, of, like, doing this kind of work. It is a challenge. Because I am honest. And I'm not going to sell a client a Cadillac that they don't have a license to drive. I just can't do it. But, fortunately this has worked out, and I feel like because of that, I've made very good client relationships. And we, you know, I've continued to do good work with people because they see that I have their best interests at heart.

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Tammy: Yeah. It's not even just in the agency game. I think it's just in life in general. I think, you know, in any role that I've ever had, or in any relationship I've ever had outside of work, I think what you just said is true. I think that when you connect... Or, building relationships with someone is all about building trust. And the way that you build trust is, I mean, I think, by telling the truth. And that may be, you know, being really honest and saying things, like, that maybe don't benefit you in that moment. And I think that when you can do that, I think that it really shows that you do care about the person across from you. Because you're not just doing what benefits you personally, you're actually thinking more about it from their, through their perspective.

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Chappell: Yeah. I mean, that's... That is, to me, like... I know strategist is a term that gets tossed around, and no one even really knows what it means. But for me, it's like, a strategist is someone who can deal with even just a few inputs, and then come up with many possible solutions and plans, in a very ambiguous situation. And part of that is also... It's not just coming up with plans, it's making sure that they're plans that can actually be done.

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Tammy: Mm.

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Chappell: And, you know, I... A long time ago, I had a client come to me and just say... They said, we need an app. We need to build an app. And now, this client is a nonprofit company in the government space. And so, when someone like that comes to me and says, we need an app, it sets off my red flags. I said, you know what, let's just get on the phone and talk. And so we met, and I was like, tell me what the problem is, what's going on? And when they told me their problem, they didn't need an app. They needed, like, a very well-built Google doc. You know what I mean?

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Tammy: (Laughs) Yeah.

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Chappell: And as they explained it to me, I was like, okay, I just want to tell you what an app, having an app means. I was like, I told them, like, the kind of pricing an app could cost. And they were, like, a bit surprised, but still listening. And then I was like, also, do you have anyone on staff who's technical, who can maintain it? Do you have anyone on staff who can update the content in the copy? And they were just like, no. (Laughs)

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Tammy: Right.

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Chappell: We don't have any of that. And I was like, look, y'all. Like, I could sell you this Cadillac, but you don't have the... Not only do you not have the people to drive it, you don't need it. Like, you really don't. And they were so thankful. We did some work for them. It was very small. And, look, I guess I could have tried to make these people buy a really expensive app, but they would have been screwed.

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Tammy: Right.

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Chappell: And I just can't do it. I can't do it. And that's not... It's not the way I want to work. And so, like, I wouldn't be able to hang out at companies that made me think like that. Because I still believe a good strategist is a pragmatic one. You know? And so, like, it was a great conversation, and now I have a friend, and I could... One day they might have other problems that we could help with. But that wasn't the right problem to, like, bring to a company like the one I was working at, you know? 

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Tammy: Yeah. And I think you touched on something that we talk about a lot. Around, like, the pragmatism. I think, like... If you can't do the work, if you can't put it out into the world and actually have that, those transformative outcomes that you were talking about in your tweet. (Laughs)

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Chappell: (Laughs)

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Tammy: If you can't get off of the PowerPoint deck or out of the PowerPoint slides and actually get to, the actually rolling up, and the making of the thing, and putting the thing out into the world, or even if it was the Google doc, right? I think that there's...

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Chappell: Yep.

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Tammy: When you hear the word strategy so often, it's kind of like, I think people think about, maybe some of the strategy consultants who, you know, put things out in the world, like, you know, grow... Create efficiencies so that you can grow, kind of thing. Versus, how do you take something and very quickly get it to a phase where you can, you know, try it out? Or see if it's going to work, or put it into action, and get what you're looking for?

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Chappell: Right. Well, that's why I moved. I've been at agencies for a while, but it's why I moved into a company like Launch, is because I was like, hey, I actually want to sit on teams that build stuff, and then see it shipped. Most strategists are working at places where they don't get to do that. They don't get to see something built, they don't get to see an end product. They are not burdened by the outcomes. And I think a good strategist needs their feet to the fire. And my hardest times in my role has been when I've had to oversee projects, and the strategies I create have to show up in the end as outcomes. It is scary, but it is important. Because you're, like, putting your money where your mouth is. So that was so critical to me, to be... You know, when you're in touch with the thing that gets made, you're a better person. And I truly believe you're better at your job and better at thinking. Because, like... I think most of my 20s was defined by falling in love with, like, systems and making processes that make things efficient, and, oh, we're just going to make these briefs and these templates and it's going to be great, and it's process, process, process. Now I'm just like, oh, people exist. And you can create the most beautiful process that is even made by a beautiful AI robot person. I don't care what, how you make it. People be peopling. And life happens. And I think... I used to think a strategist was just a person who created these beautiful systems and processes. And working around designers, I know a lot of designers who have felt that way, too, at points in their career. I make these beautiful systems, and whatever. But then when you're really in it, you get to see, oh... (Laughs)

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Tammy: Yeah.

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Chappell: Systems are best laid plans. But really, really, our value can be in helping do the best we can, create plans, create process, but also make room for people being people. And to help move along to the end product, even when that system does not work as intended. 

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Tammy: Do you think that's because... Like, because I think that sometimes, when you are the consultancy or you are the agency, it is so easy to build processes for someone else to have to actually implement them. Right?

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Chappell: Yes. Yes.

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Tammy: So I'm curious about, like, was there... Was it a role that you had? Like, was it when you were working in New York City? Or, like, what was it that kind of made you realize that part? Because that's, I think, where the rubber hits the road, is like... You're the one left with actually delivering on the process versus writing it.

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Chappell: So, I think, in the city, I definitely learned a lot about this. And... Because I was a part of a, like, basically a kind of design and communication studio within a very large agency. Everyone... When you have a design studio, like in-house, quote-unquote, everyone thinks there's this silver bullet where you can create this thing, that everyone calls something like an intake process or an intake form, and that you're going to be able to intake projects so efficiently, and it's all going to populate in some beautiful spreadsheet, and then, like, everyone has awareness, and it's like, you can just set it and forget it, right? I remember sitting there, and just being like, while we were trying to create this intake flow and process, because our studio had to serve, you know, 5000 people. And I was like... So, y'all's idea is that there's a form you're going to send someone to fill out when they want us to do something, right? And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, cool. Is our commissioner going to do that? Do you think anyone in the executive office is going to do that? Or do you think they're more likely to just walk down here and say, here's my idea, please do it?

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Tammy: Mm.

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Chappell: Because, let's be real, executive-level folks, they don't want paperwork.

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Tammy: Right.

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Chappell: That's not for them. They didn't have, like, executive assistants to do this work. So I was just like, that's an example of... You have to remember that people are still people. And it doesn't mean... I don't think it's wrong. I don't think it's wrong that an executive wants to just walk down and say, hey, I have an idea. That's how they work. And this also is like, so many processes cannot take into account, just, the massive spectrum of learning disabilities and all sorts of, kind of, different spectrum behaviors and ways people intake information. I truly, as somebody who works in writing and communication all day, I truly cannot believe we can understand each other.

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Tammy: (Laughs)

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Chappell: Because we all have such different ways of completing tasks and taking in inputs. And that's why I got to a point where I was like, oh, systems are nice, but they don't fix everything. And one system creates other problems. It can... It might solve some.

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Tammy: Mhm.

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Chappell: You know, like... There's one book that was talking about, like the... Like a sanitation program in a city. It fixes the problem of, now there's no more garbage on the street, which is really great. But then it creates this whole system of, well, we need trucks, we need to work on union agreements, we need to work on, like, labor times. We need to... It... Systems beget more systems. And that's, in some ways, why I don't worry so much about AI taking over humans' jobs. Because we love to create more systems, to create more systems, to create more jobs. Like... It's what we do. We are so hopeless when it comes to creating more systems and jobs. Honestly.

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Tammy: Yeah. Well, let's pivot into that. Like, I know you have a really strong opinion on AI and all that good stuff. So, tell me what you think about that. Tell me what you think about it taking over jobs. Tell me where you think it's all at.

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Chappell: You know, I've gone up and down on my feelings about AI. And I think it's hard to talk about it in this time because it's, we've been on such a boom cycle. I think where I'm at right now is that... The issue I'm finding is that, AI should be part of your process, not your outcome. And we are unfortunately in a time where everyone thinks AI is an outcome. Like, oh, we'll just make these AI images, it'll be great. Oh, we'll just fix it with AI. We'll just do... That is untenable, uninteresting, and not what it's for. It's like... It is an automation. And I've seen really smart ways that AI can do incredible things for your process. Just like, yeah, I absolutely think we should have a machine that turns a piece of wood so that you can make a stool leg, and you no longer have to whittle it by hand. And now a person making a chair can work on other things, right? Like... We don't want to have to make a nail every time we want to go get it at the factory. That's because that's process. You know, a nail is part of a process of building something bigger. So, absolutely, if we can automate making a nail, then we're going to be able to build more houses and make them better. So, like... There is a part of this where I'm like, yeah. It makes sense. I see where AI is going. I think the problem is it's become, again, it's part of the vague soup of corporate jargon that's getting thrown around to sell products in a time where technology, like, has really gone very far from its roots of trying to make things more useful for people. And I do kind of hope we see a rubber band effect, where this is like, the furthest stretch, and we kind of snap back to... You know, I often say, I kind of wish tech was uncool again. (Laughs)

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Tammy: (Laughs)

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Chappell: Like, I just want to make cool software and just, like, sit on my Apple Quadra and, like, play Shufflepuck and, learn how to code in HTML. Like, I want to do all those things and be uncool again. And I think it's just become really hard, because so many companies are so tied up in public interest, and in investors. The pressure is so real. I mean, and I can't blame them for trying to find ways to keep squeezing more interest. But I do think we'll see user-facing AI chill out. But, the sort of internal AI as tooling and software will continue to hum and do great stuff. And then maybe it'll come back out to a more user-facing thing. But I, you know... I haven't seen a ton of, like, user-facing, I'm an AI person, like, literally stating that. Like, I don't think people care as much that it's powered by AI.

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Tammy: Yeah.

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Chappell: You know, that... I think we might be overthinking that. 

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Tammy: Yeah. I mean, there's a billboard that, I'm not going to name the company, but it's basically...

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Chappell: (Laughs)

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Tammy: You know what I'm talking about? It says, "Stop hiring humans."

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Chappell: Oh, God.

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Tammy: That's the billboard, and that's the ad that's on the bus stop, and stop hiring humans. Because, you know, the bots can, the generative AI BDRs, and the generative AI salespeople... I think that when we went to, when digital transformation started, oh my gosh, 30 years ago, we basically took away humanity between the brand, the organization, the company and the people, right? We took away the 800 number, we created a website. We forced people to go find the information for themselves. They had terrible interfaces to go do that. And we sort of removed, like, any sort of normal, hey, company A, I have, you know, this and this and this challenge, what products do you have that can support that? Right? And so, I think that there's space now for generative AI using large language models to kind of bring back some of that humanity. But I certainly don't think it's going to continue to remove more peoples, especially in the customer-facing, between, you know, whether it's patient, customer or citizen, between them and the companies, organizations, and state and local government. But it's like a... Almost like a, how do we bring a bit of humanity back to technology by using some of it? But, I think it does start with real human problems, though, right?

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Chappell: Totally. And, I mean, I think... It's always going to be a challenge to try to humanize AI. It always will be. You get into a lot of challenges. It's tough. I think where we're going to find a lot more progress and things move faster is bringing AI to situations and to people to help them get things done. But it's still, like... I don't know if it's big, as big of a sell as people think, to say we have an AI-powered note taker. I think one day we will look back on this and think it's funny, in the same way, like... Can you imagine if we were seeing cars advertised as wheel-driven cars?

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Tammy: Right.

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Chappell: We'd be like, okay. You know what I mean? Like, cool.

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Tammy: Yeah. Yeah.

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Chappell: I do think we will look back and realize that, like, AI-driven doesn't... It doesn't mean much anymore. Because, yeah, okay. That's part of how we get things done here. I could see that in the not so distant future. Yeah. Look, there's a thousand challenges. From, like, I, again, I don't believe full displacement of humans is what is going to happen here anytime soon. And to be honest, I actually kind of thought we'd see a lot more lawsuits show up.

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Tammy: Mm.

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Chappell: Like, the proprietary issues.

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Tammy: Yeah.

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Chappell: Like, I really did. Because, like, people are just creating, like, whole movies, out of clips from real movies. And I'm like, wait, is that... Is that legal? (Laughs)

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Tammy: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I was going to ask you, like, what do you think about the ethical... Like, you have a lot of, like, ethics and design, and I think, like, how do you think about that from... You just brought it up from proprietary... Like, how do you think that's going to? When do you think that will? Do you think it will?

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Chappell: That's the real hard part. I don't know how much... Like I said, I think AI image generation is cool. For now. I kind of, like, equate it... Again, I could be totally wrong here. I'm not, like, Nostradamus. But I equate it...

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Tammy: (Laughs)

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Chappell: I equate it to, like, in the '90s when we thought clip art was going to make it, solve all of our problems. And, we don't have to have a designer on staff anymore because we have this clip art bank. And we paid all this money for it. Yeah, guess what? No one uses clip art now. I mean, some do. But now I kind of feel like there's a lot of AI imagery that's along that same vein. Now, again, like I said, if you're an illustrator and you repeat the same sort of, kind of, process or approach to setting up your palettes, to doing all this kind of stuff, AI the heck out of that, man. Like, that is so cool. I think, I hope to see personal AI as the future, but... We always have tried to decentralize the web. I've always had that dream, but you can't really make money off of it. So, you know... Because I've always wanted, like... I think of, like, if you had a personal AI, it's almost like a pirate with a parrot on their shoulder.

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Tammy: (Laughs)

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Chappell: It's like, that's like, what I want to be, is like, a pirate. So, I think it'd be cool to train my own.

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Tammy: Yeah. You open it up like a little thing, and the, the little body pops up. Like, I forget that I'm on a podcast, no one can see me doing the things I'm doing with my hands.

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Chappell: (Laughs)

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Tammy: But, yeah, yeah, I love that you have already given it a persona. And it's a pirate, and it has a parrot on its shoulder. Do you have a name for your pirate?

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Chappell: No. Not yet. I gotta, I gotta work on... I gotta make my D&D character. But yeah, I don't want to diminish... I have so many friends in visual design and illustration who are really scared, and I think you have every right to be. We just don't even think about the things we type into boxes, and where it goes and where it's kept. And it's slightly scary.

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Tammy: Yeah.

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Chappell: And... I do see a bright future for my friends who are designers and illustrators. And I've been sitting with a lot of people and trying to help them understand why this is going to be okay. And that a lot of this is hype that will go away. But, like... It is a challenge, because everyone wants to make money and survive and feed their families. So, I do hope we see AI become more of a, like, oh, this is just part of a process. You know, the way that, like, we automated washing.

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Tammy: Right.

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Chappell: Now we don't have to use... Wash in washbasins anymore. And that's really great, but guess what? We still have so much stuff to do.

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Tammy: Right. I mean, I know, you know, both of us have the agency background. I mean, I have a lot of creatives in my life. I'm not one of them. I'm on the business side. But a lot of creatives in my life are genuinely concerned, and I think that until the hype cycle is over, they are definitely impacted by it right now. Because, until it doesn't work, until it doesn't sell the way that they thought it would, or until it doesn't do the advertising it thought it would, it's definitely being experimented with, and trying. And I think it's... It's created, like, a sea of sameness to me, right? Like, I don't...

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Chappell: Yeah.

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Tammy: That's like, I think, where's the spark? Like, when you watch creatives work and you watch them do their process. Like, you know, there's like, a spark that not everyone can see. And it's the same, it's similar to, probably, someone who paints portraits or paints, you know, is an artist that does painting. It's very similar. Like, it's a very similar sort of spark that you can almost see, and not everyone can do it. And I don't think that, you know, AI is going to be able to do that very human part of creativity.

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Chappell: Yeah. And, you know... I mean, there's so many things to say about this and there's so little time. But, you know, I still think the way humans decide to do things and get things done, it matters.

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Tammy: Yeah.

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Chappell: And I remember... It was almost probably a decade ago. I was complaining to my therapist, which I'm sure she probably loved, about, like, whatever I was complaining about in my 20s that I thought was important. I think I was complaining about, like... I have this idea for this book and I never work on it, why don't I work on my great American novel? Whatever. And she asked me this question. This was long before AI. She said, if you could press a button and have that novel appear right in front of you and it's done, would you do it? And I just realized the answer was no. And that's because it still mattered to me to do the thing. Because that's where the value was for me, personally. I mean, unfortunately, ain't nobody paying me to make a novel right now.

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Tammy: (Laughs)

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Chappell: And that makes it harder. But I'm still saying, like, the innate sense in us is that we want to experience the process and the craft of doing a thing. And we're always going to be able to tell, like, when a person has put so much into something.

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Tammy: You definitely didn't disappoint, Chappell. I'm going to end right there, because I think that what you just said is really amazing and compelling. Because I think it is the work. And each of us, what that definition is, is what, like, keeps us going and is going to be the thing that drives us. And I think your point earlier about, it's an individual thing. Like, it's going to be different for every single person. It's like, what you imagine pressing that button would take away from you if you did that. And that was what was the meaning, was the meaningful piece of the writing was for you. So, Chappell, thank you so much for joining us today. It has been absolutely amazing. You did not disappoint, and I'm just so thankful to have you here. To our listeners, thank you so much for joining us on Catalyst, the Launch by NTT Data Podcast. We'll see you back here next week.

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