Lessons on leadership: Tammy Soares and the art of human-centric innovation

Clinton Bonner: Responsive... What's the word I'm looking for?

Tammy Soares: Awesome. Intelligent. Beautiful. Amazing... 

Clinton: (Laughs) No, it wasn't those. Wasn't those, wasn't those.

(CATALYST INTRO MUSIC)

Clinton: Welcome to Catalyst, the Launch by NTT Data podcast. Catalyst is an ongoing discussion for digital leaders dissatisfied with the status quo, and yet optimistic about what's possible through smart technology and great people. And yes, I'm always fired up for every single guest we have in the Catalyst studio. However, I am extra fired up. For the first time, our new president at Launch by NTT data, Tammy Soares. A little bit about Tammy: Tammy takes a design-led approach that puts humans first at the heart of innovation, and she has done so for, now, a 25 year-plus career, doing some really cool and intriguing things. Prior to joining NTT Data, Tammy worked at Soul Machines as Chief Revenue Officer, Accenture as president of Accenture Song, and head of innovation for the company's West Market unit, and as president and CEO of Rosetta Marketing, a publicist agency. Okay, enough with the preamble. Let's get to it. Tammy, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?

Tammy: I am doing so great today. And I have to say, this is one of the things that I've really been looking forward to doing, is having this podcast with you, Clinton. So thanks for having me on today.

Clinton: Love it. Yeah, it's... So excited to have you here. I've been able to work with you now for a few months, and as part of introducing you, you know, more globally to the world, this is going to be an awesome vehicle to do so. So let's get right into it. Hands into the wet clay, there. So Tammy, you're here at Launch by NTT Data. You are the new president. You're leading. Awesome. What makes you tick? What makes you you? What do people have to know about you?

Tammy: Yeah. So, it's funny, as you said so graciously in the intro, my 25-plus year career in digital. You know, I started out in a startup in the early '90s when the internet first launched. And, you know, it's been a wild ride ever since then. And I think for me, what I've just sort of found is my, sort of, sweet spot in all of that is just, being right in the middle of, like, the experiences that can be created, that technology enables. I think, you know, if you go and look at my LinkedIn profile, it says that I love, you know, figuring out how to make the impossible possible through technology, and really focusing at that center, that intersection of what people need and want, and how technology can deliver against that, and how that helps our clients. Like, that's actually where I love to be.

Clinton: Yeah. It's a fun epicenter, right? So much has happened in, say, the last 15, 20 years, ever since the iPhone and even before that. And yet, there's still so much more to go do, to keep making things, I don't know, just that much more accessible for humans to go be their best, right? And do amazing things. And that's what fires me up every single day is, like, that's what technology can do. And continues to do. And I'm always wowed by... just what's coming out, what's coming down the pike. CES is happening right now as we record this, so I'm just diving into all the cool stuff coming out of CES, and I'm floored by it. I get excited, as an optimist, about what the future holds because of cool tech and people applying it in some really unique ways.

Tammy: Yeah, absolutely. And I think part of that 25-year career, when I was working at Rosetta, one of my main clients was BlackBerry. And this is, you know, BlackBerry and then Samsung after BlackBerry. And so, being at the forefront with those clients as the new features and things came out of the smartphone devices, and just kind of watching all of that happen, and then being at that front of it. And, you know, my daughter played soccer and I will never forget, we were out at a soccer tournament one weekend, and she came off of the field and wanted to go to a Jamba Juice. And so I pick up my smartphone and I type it in, Jamba juice is three miles away, and we're out in the middle of nowhere in California. And it struck me in that moment that my daughter has no idea what life was like before a Google Maps, where you would have to have like, the big wide fold-out maps, and you'd have to, like, know where you were going ahead of time, or you would have to go and find, like, a payphone that still had the Yellow Pages, and you would go and look up and then call them and say, where are you? How do I get there? And it was funny because she was just looking at me like I had corn coming out of my ears or something. And when I got home, I, like, dug up and, like, I found a drawer that still had one of those maps. And I was like, see? This is what we used to have to do. And it's just funny because you... I mean, obviously that's probably a little more than 15 years ago, but not too much more than that. So. Again, it's just another example of, like, that transformed our lives. But you literally don't think about it that way because it just happened over time. But she never has to live in a world where she needs to make sure a payphone has the Yellow Pages book in it. She doesn't even know what that book is. So, it's funny.

Clinton: Yeah, it is. Even when, you know, we were growing up, too. That book ended up being used in the commercials, even as, like, the thing you'd put under the kids so they could sit a little higher, right? And it's like, they were kind of foretelling their own future there, right?

Tammy: Yeah. And not to stay on this too much longer, but just recently I was at the other end of the scale. I was with my parents and they were trying to find, like, an electrician to come to their house, and they live up in the mountains out of, kind of, out of the range of the city. And my parents were literally busting out their Yellow Pages looking for this electrician. And I was like, oh dear. Like, I just got online and I'm like, here's three people you should be calling. And... They didn't even know how to do that. But it's just really funny. The other end of the spectrum of... 

Clinton: Yeah. The advertising that comes back to me is the, there was that, the tagline, "let your fingers do the walking." Right? That's what it used to be. Like, you had to parse through this gigantic encyclopedia of options, know what the hell you're looking for, and then hopefully you make a good choice based on who has the first name that starts with AA. So, you know, Aaron's plumbing is there, they're really busy. And everybody's... Aaron's plumbing and Aaron's electrical. And, yeah. Things have changed, right? And you've gone through quite a career arc, and I mentioned Soul Machines earlier. So you've been inside startups. You've been inside complex organizations such as Accenture. Where do you feel you thrive, and where do you want to be?

Tammy: I think for me, where, you know, where I get the most juice is like, definitely being with client and with teams, like, in the work. I really enjoy, you know, being a part of coming up with those things. So any role that I ever take, I always want to make sure that there's some component or aspect of that where I get to be in the work and can influence the work, because that's just really fun, to be a part of that and to watch what's possible when you bring really strong cross-functional teams together across strategy and design and product and technology, and really be able to focus on what our... Like, coming up with those ideas for those game-changing experiences that, you know, are like what we were talking about with Google Maps instead of the fold-out maps kind of things. Like, it's really cool to be a part of that. I think for me also, though, I get a lot from being with people. I love, love being a leader. I think that that's something I've gravitated towards, whether I was 16 years old on a volleyball team or, even now, today, being the president of Launch, I think you can be a leader regardless of where you are. But that's always something that's really gravitated towards me. Like, I love being able to bring people together, and understanding people at that individual level. What makes them tick? How do you create an environment and a culture that people can thrive in and get excited to be a part of? Like, I... There's... I get a little bit of a kick out of that, by being able to see, like, I was able to make these changes and do these things and people really responding to it and wanting to be a part of it. And so, I get really excited about being able to do that. I think those two things really come together for me really well.

Clinton: A thing you're hitting out there too, for me, is, I always am attracted to, and in my career I've had, I've tried to as well, take the opportunity to lead with or without authority. Right? And now that you are in the seat you're in, you have all that authority. How do you empower that, let's say next gen, or just the ranks, if you will. How do you empower them from a leadership perspective to be like, hey, no, you don't need this title to go be a leader, and to go have the impact that you want to have?

Tammy: I think that's a really good question. And I think sometimes there are... I think there's also the acknowledgment that some people don't want to be a leader, and they do want to do, like, be the individual contributor and, like, we need those folks too. And so, I think it's really helping people understand, you can be a leader and show up as a leader and set a good example, and, you know, move things forward just by showing up and being there and being at that front spot, if you will. I think leaning into things, being really proactive, using your voice when you can, making sure that you're creating space for people around you, also, to be leaders. It can be really easy to, like, come in and say, you know, this is what we're going to go do, go do it. Versus me coming in and saying, hey, this is the problem we're trying to solve for, what are your ideas on how to solve for those problems and create space for that? And I think you also have to balance out, you know, you're going to have people in the room, on the call, you know, whether you have extroverts on your team or introverts, you know, making space for both voices to be heard, and accommodating that. So, you know, that's one of the things I love about design-led thinking and the ability to, like, you know, use all the post-it notes, is, that's a really strong tactic to be able to make sure it's not just the loudest voices in the room. Or the people that are always the most willing to share their ideas. It's creating that space that allows others to input. So I think it's those two things. It's one, like I said, just creating the space and asking people what they think, and showing them what it's like to do that. And hopefully as people and leaders, they're going to do that with their teams. But then also just making sure that you're being inclusive and accommodating, maybe, voices that need to be heard in a little bit of a different ways so that you've got, you know, those voices included in whatever it is that you're doing to drive that, you know, leadership capability.

Clinton: Very cool messaging. And I could confirm for the audience that, we've worked together now for just a few months. However, I know what you just said is, like, a fabric of how you go at this, like, day in, day out. My experience with you is that thus far. And you're super aware to kind of center yourself, and then help the group get centered around that, that's like, okay, are we allowing for all the contributions we have to. While understanding that sometimes, hey, it can't be a thousand cooks. Some things need the faster path and faster tracks. And knowing how to gauge those, too, and knowing how to govern those, given the situation. So, really cool nuggets, I think, that... Or leadership nuggets I think the audience will really appreciate. You mentioned problem solving, and you're talking about these experiences and how that drives you. There's got to be, in that 25 year career, something you're super proud of, or a story or two you're like, this is a great example of what you mean. Is this something you want to share, like, in that vein?

Tammy: Yeah, absolutely. I probably can't share the details of who the client was, but, you know, there was a toy company that everyone would know about that I was working with on a project. And when we started to work with them, the project started with, we want you to build a, you know, a mobile app. A new game for kids who are interacting with our brand. And while that would have been great, we didn't necessarily think that was going to be the right thing moving forward, because they already had, you know, multiple games in the App Store, and we just weren't quite sure we were centering around the things that they were actually trying to drive. So we were able to, you know, talk to them about taking a step back, and really understanding the problem that they were trying to solve for, which in this case was the age of the child that would be playing with this toy had dramatically changed over the many, many, many years that this toy had been on the market. And they were trying to come up with something new that would engage this new audience level, for example. And so, we took that step back to really understand, what was that pain point they were solving for? And what we were able to do was take that idea of creating the game and some other ideas across the organization, outside of even just the group we were working with, so that we could understand how others thought that they should solve for it. And we took it into the market, and we did some field research, where we were testing prototypes, and we were actually talking to children and their parents, and we were looking at... watching the children actually play with these toys to see, you know, what was actually driving their engagement and what wasn't. And so, what came out of that was... We didn't, you know... The children were playing with that toy as it relates to the world of play that they were in, and the accessories that they were using in that toy, and they didn't actually have the right accessories, or a great set of accessories to play with that toy. That was number one. And number two was that some of the accessories that came with that toy were not age appropriate for that child who was playing with that toy. So while there were accessories, not the right age group. And then the last was, the only people... You know, parents were begging us, please don't build another digital experience for our child. They have enough of those. What we love about your toy is, they're excited about physical play and being on the floor playing with this toy. So, more of that, please. And so, what we ended up coming up with were a set of actions. Some of them were projects that we delivered. Some had nothing to do with the kind of work that we delivered. So, you know, they did it on a different team, and... So it was more about understanding, not necessarily selling more of our services. But the digital experience that we created was for the parent to understand what part of the toy, what are the surrounding toys, what are the accessories that would match to what their child's interests were? And then a foundational change in the types of accessories that were created for this toy to be more age-appropriate so that kids would be engaging in it, and parents would want to buy the accessories that went along with that toy to encourage more play. So, again, it's like my favorite example because... We were, you know, we were able to pivot the thinking of a client from a, this is what we need to go do to solve this point, hire me as a company to go do it. We were able to pivot that into a, let's take a step back and really understand the problem set as a business you're trying to solve for. But then, what are the humans who are engaging and interacting with your product? Like, uncovering their unmet needs, or their, you know, adjacencies to that product that we could capitalize on in order to solve for that business goal, versus going straight in with, like, this is the project we're going to go do. And I love that we were able to do that with them. And it was a really true partnership. I was... You know, I sat next to their CTO on the ideation teams when we were coming up with the concepts of, what should we try and what should we test and put into market after we'd gotten this research back. And, you know, it was just a really fun project. It's an amazing brand that I love to work with. But I think it's the way that we were able to pivot that thinking was really cool and exciting to see happen.

Clinton: So Tammy, you just talked about pivoting and then bringing something back to the client after you've done the discovery. And again, that's like, the softer side of, how do you communicate those things? So, you get the buy-in, then you get the... Because there's probably a pause in momentum. There's some risk there. Hey, we're going to pivot. So you've gotta, whatever that is, change tracks, change direction. And then, how do you get them back along with you quickly, so that you can build that momentum back and then get that project and get that buy-in you're after? There's gotta be some cool lessons there.

Tammy: Yeah. So I think it's being able to get them to just pull back. So I was working with my main client, and she is a dear friend of mine to this day, actually, we're chatting here pretty soon, and if you're listening, you know who you are. We were able to, really early on, develop a relationship of trust. I was sort of brought in as, like, an escalation point around some of the things not going necessarily well on that project. And I was able to very quickly come in and establish trust by looking holistically across their team, our team, and helping to solve for some of the immediate issues that we were having. And that very short period of time established trust to say... And having the confidence... And maybe, you know, it's being brave enough. There's always that thing about not being afraid. It's not about not being afraid. It's about being brave enough to bring your point of view and to bring your thinking. It doesn't mean that I know I'm... that there's a bit of, like, fear in there that, like, I'm being vulnerable and I don't know how my client's going to respond, but I think it's having the confidence and being brave enough to come back to a client very respectfully, and just respectfully challenging. And so there was a bit of a challenge around, you know, where did this idea come from? You know, was there research behind it? Do you really understand? And it was more asking questions, instead of coming in with the answer that, like, made them think about the problem differently and opened them up to an alternative solution. And so, you know, one of the things that I knew about the organization was, I knew it wasn't just this one idea that people were putting forward across different functional areas of the business. I knew other departments were trying to solve for this problem in other ways. And so, it was a way also to bring their organization together. And she got to be the champion of doing that, and bringing in different groups that maybe don't typically work together in order to solve for this holistically. So, you know, again, I think it's having the confidence and bravery to be able to challenge, but then challenge respectfully, through asking questions and maybe pointing out things that maybe aren't so obvious to them, because they're inside looking in. And I think that is a good part about being a partner is, you can provide that outside-in point of view. So being respectful of, look, I don't know everything that's going on in your organization, but from the outside, this is what it looks like to me. And where I see, maybe, there's some areas that we can improve. I think that that goes a long way. And that's pretty much how I approach those types of things.

Clinton: Awesome stuff there, some great lessons. And then, as we look, and you're talking now as the president of Launch by NTT Data, you're engaged in lots of conversations with technology leaders in the C-suite, digital experience leaders. What is frustrating them the most, do you think?

Tammy: Yeah. I think that, you know, look, many of our clients are in the process of going through and transforming their business. And I think a big component of that business transformation is really thinking about, how do you create amazing digital products and services that can either drive growth by creating, you know, new revenue streams, or creating services or products that are going to drive efficiency, whether that's with customers or whether that's with employees. And I think that organizations overall have struggled with that, you know, for a number of reasons. I think that operationally, they're not necessarily structured or operating in a way to do it. Their budgets aren't set up to be able to do that. They may lack the skills in order to deliver on these, you know, new digital ideas and new digital products, or not just even have the ideas, but then how do you bring them to fruition and treat them like a product and having a regular product life cycle? And then I think it's really, you know, needing to expand their customer mindset or their approach on customers and understand that customer mindset, so that they're finding those adjacencies to their, you know, standard, typical product. What are those adjacencies we can create that a digital product could solve for and drive that revenue or drive those efficiencies? And then last, and probably, like, the biggest, is the significant amount of technical, you know, debt, the legacy technical debt that they're carrying from the last 20 years of digital transformation and digital disruption. And so I think that, you know, we've seen, I've seen, you know, organizations solve for it in different ways, whether it's coming up with new C-suite titles or whether it's coming up with innovation offices, they're still trying to figure it out. But, you know, I think it's being able to come in and solve specifically for that, is proving to be, and continues to be, really challenging for legacy businesses who are trying to make that jump into being more digital in order to take advantage of the disruption that that can bring to their organization.

Clinton: Yeah. And you're talking about the, in some ways, the specificity of the member of the C-suite or their team that, their function they're leading. And then also the... Kind of the whole system working together, right? So that, as you're helping a particular function potentially look at what they're trying to improve and get better at or get smoother at, still very often it feels like, yeah, they might be able to improve some things, and yet the lack of vision of how it might either disrupt or not be additive to other plans sometimes limit, like, the progress or the promise of the work that stays in a silo. So how do you think about that as well? Where it's like, yes, we could functionally help you in a particular part of the organization, and we have got to make sure that this is an additive and it bolsters other things that are going on in other functions.

Tammy: Yeah, I think inclusivity is key, first of all, because I think that what ends up and tends to happen is, these functional areas or however the organization is siloed, they're trying to solve for that problem set in their area that they are responsible for and manage. And really, to be able to solve something like this, you actually have to look across the entirety of the organization and all the different bits and pieces. It goes back to that story I was telling earlier. In order for that to work, we had to work across, you know, sales and marketing and the ops team with supply chain and with the digital team. Like, it required all of those teams working together in order to solve for that bigger problem. And I think that that is what needs to be done is like, making sure that you have... So if you're working with an innovation team, does the innovation team have the right constituents across the organization that need to contribute to creating that innovation, or that new innovative idea, or that new digital product? Or, are you only solving for it with one department, you know? And so I think inclusivity is absolutely key. It is making sure that, you know, it makes it a little bit harder up front. It may seem like it takes longer up front because you're doing that, you're giving space for all voices to be heard. But then as you come up with the idea, the adoption of that across the organization works really well. That part goes much faster, back to your point, because you've got that contribution around what needs to be done and that buy-in up front, and then it makes it just that much quicker as it rolls out. And then the adoption and everything just kind of falls in line, and everyone can then go back into their functional area and execute on their portion of what drives that product forward. But they're all doing it lock step with each other and understanding how they're doing it. So, I think it's that, like I said, a little bit up front, being more inclusive. Might feel harder to have a meeting with 20 people to hear all those different voices, but being able to bring those voices together to come up with the product that is then going to be tested in the market, getting feedback, making those changes and then pushing that through, is going to be so much faster.

Clinton: It is. That bit of, the upfront work reaps a lot of rewards downstream, and also allows for, not just that one time for it to succeed. It's also the efforts afterwards. You could build on that and be like, ooh, that was better. That was smoother. Whether that's getting to market faster or getting... Whatever it might be, getting users around it faster, getting it all... It all starts to kind of click with momentum. And it is that bit of a flywheel, where the next time you go do something of that scale of that, you know, largeness, well, you know what you learned quite a bit also. And you're learning how to work differently. I think one of the things that I think about quite a bit is, look, two different roles, right? I lead a marketing function. Cool. And, I have to not just show up to an ELT and listen and bring it back to my function. That's not the role of being on the ELT, you know? That's part of it for sure. But it's also being able to put a different lens and a different purview on, to look at the whole and contribute much more horizontally in that function, understand what needs to go back to the marketing function, but really being able to kind of osmotically just understand that you gotta, you have to be able to straddle those two things. And then when you start to get the functions working together more, in more harmony, man, it just picks up its own steam and own momentum. And things get better. And products get better and products get sharper, and it really shows out. You know, you're not, it's not always going to be roses, and you're going to have swings and misses. But the consistency on how you approach things and how you collaborate cross-function, it really shows out and just brings so much momentum with it.

Tammy: Yeah. And I think, you know, harkening back to some of my executive training earlier in my career, I remember a big pivot that we made on my team is, who is your team one? Like, who is your team one? And from a leader, your team one should be the team that you sit on, not the one that you lead. So in your example, your team one shouldn't be the marketing function, your team one should be that ELT. And if you think about it through that lens, your teammates and your colleagues that you're working with day to day should be that cross-functional team that's looking out for the business as its entirety, and that sort of gives you that voice that you're saying that you should have, which you should. You look at problems differently, and you could have ideas for the engineering team to solve for something that they're working on, because you can see the problem from a different angle. And that's actually where innovation happens, is being able to look at, you know, the problem through different lenses. And again, back to my point, it's really about who that team one is. Now, your marketing team, all your marketing, you know, folks who work for you, they should see that as team one, right? But for you, it's a mindset shift around where you feel like you're spending your day-to-day and what problems you're solving for. And actually, as a member of the ELT, you're solving for that bigger problem set. And then of course, like, your job to execute is in the marketing function, but you're thinking holistically across that larger problem. And I think that that's absolutely right.

Clinton: Again, the leadership nuggets that are coming throughout this entire conversation are, I think, are really valuable, too. And I always like to make sure that, hey, this is a podcast about technologies and experiences, and we always want to have a bit of a future cast, a little bit of an eye towards what's coming next, what is exciting you or, you know, the work you're doing. And for our guests, just what they're diving into as well. So, look, we do lots of different work at Launch by NTT Data. Great. That's awesome. We love it. And there's still that, hey, two to three to five years out, what's coming down the pike or happening right now? So, for you, Tammy: what are you seeing out there that, like, people are talking about, but also, like, you're personally excited about from a technology perspective? Or, new experiences and just, things that are just blowing you away?

Tammy: Yeah. I mean, look, the talk of the town is GPT, right? Generative AI and what is going to happen to that? I think it's still in the... Feels like it's been longer than a year, but it has only been a year. But I think the consumer adoption of that technology last year when ChatGPT launched was just incredible. Like, you know, GPT is not, isn't brand new, but ChatGPT came on the scene and just completely shook things up. You know, when my husband, who is a CPA, accountant, finance controller guy, knows what the heck a new tech is that comes on the scene, then it's made... it's made it big. And so, I think that it's exciting. It's incredibly exciting. I think the applications of it are still coming through. We've seen a little bit of volatility in it, but not too much. And I think that's the one. I think that's the one to watch. I'm not making any sort of... I'm sure most people are thinking about that and looking at that, so it's probably not like, you know, something profound. But that's definitely, I think, for me, something that's going to revolutionize so much around customer experience, the way that we work, the way that we function as humans, even just in society. And so it'll be really incredible to see what's going on with that and where that leads to. And, you know, you mentioned the startup that I was just at before I joined Launch by NTT Data, and it was a company called Soul Machines. Shout out to my crew there. But it was a company that's created autonomously animated digital humans that can interact with you and show empathy. And if you smile, it smiles back at you. If you frown, it frowns back at you. And it really exudes that empathy. And I was there when ChatGPT hit the scene, and we connected one of our digital people, you know? So imagine, before ChatGPT, you had to literally write and design the conversation from scratch. A human being had to write, you know, the prompts and... not the prompts, but had to write, like, you know what to say, when to say it. If a customer says this, say this and connect it all through NLP and make it work. When ChatGPT came on the scene and we wrote the API to connect with it, we plugged one of our digital people into it and it was like... It was actually pretty shocking. I was at a client event and I said, hey, tell me about Soul Machines. And the digital human said, oh, sewing machines were invented in, you know, whatever, 17 or 16 whatever.

Clinton: (Laughs)

Tammy: And I said, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, I didn't say sewing machines. I said Soul Machines. And I know you can't see me because it's on a podcast, but this digital human put her hand over her face and shook her head and said, I am so embarrassed. I can't believe I said that. Of course you want to know about Soul Machines. And no one told her to say that. No one could have written that.

Clinton: Right.

Tammy: No one could have... And all of us, including me, who is the chief revenue officer of this company working with these things day in and day out, we're, like, on the floor, like, shocked that it just did that. So, you know, that's a little microcosm. But imagine if, instead of picking up the phone and calling and talking to someone, or filling out a form, or even typing to ChatGPT, you could actually have an empathetic, engaging conversation. So, like, the world of possibility is really incredible when you think about the different applications of it.

Clinton: I've been on calls with folks that want to know about this topic, and sometimes they're coming at from the purview... And that's their prerogative. But strictly cost-cutting. Of like, literally, how many humans can I eliminate. Which, hey, I'm not saying good, bad or ugly, if that's what you're doing, you may have your reasons. However, I would certainly nudge and prod and say, look, flip that to the growth strategy, and flip that to the services strategy, and say, how many more humans can we serve? And especially when it's human plus AI to get there. And I think that's going to be that new epicenter of how much, how much more productivity we can drive and how quickly we can accelerate products to market through some of these new, newer technologies. And yes, it's going to have that automation and that cost-cutting effect. It will be there. But I do think there's that groundswell of folks who are like, wait a second, this can be the game changer for growth and net new experiences that we couldn't have thought about, you know, five years ago. But now it's a brand new platform. And that is super exciting to even just think about and work with clients on.

Tammy: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And I think, you know, in that specific example that I was using, I think that when the original digital transformation that came about, you know, if you remember, it was like, well, we have a website, take the 800 number down.

Clinton: Yeah, right? Yeah.

Tammy: And it became about, how do you actually remove the... We've already done, sort of, some of that work around taking humans out of the equation, especially as it relates to digital. And I think that, actually, with generative AI and with large language models and with using the humans to train the content, you know, you're actually going to be able to create more, bring back more of that human-to-human-like engagement between brands and consumers by bringing a little bit of humanity back to digital, to be honest. Because I think a lot of digital was about, you know, removing some of that humanity, especially in the customer experience sort of story that I was telling earlier. And I think, you know, there's also one thing about that is... It's like, if you look at the unemployment rate overall, it's lower than it's ever been. Companies are having a really hard time even filling roles, especially in that customer service area, with human bodies. And so, I think, again, back to your point, it can be used in order to maybe even deliver on some of these skills and capabilities that humans themselves aren't really interested in doing anymore. And so, how can we leverage it to help with that as well?

Clinton: Yeah. So I think, we started with the Yellow Pages and the Aaron Plumbing, and we came full circle with bringing it back to, you know, getting humans back to the center of all this. And of course, using digital and using AI to propel it even further, even faster in the name of progress, in the name of just making things better for people. Which is why we're here, right? And what gets us juiced every single day. So, Tammy, just wanted to say thank you for the first time being on the podcast. Absolutely want to have you back. It was a thrill on this end. Any last words from you?

Tammy: No. I'm just really happy to be here. It's been really exciting and fun, and I can't wait to come on next because, you know, we're talking about maybe some amazing work that I'm working on and contributing to now that I'm here. So I'm happy to come back and look forward to getting back in front of you and with you again.

Clinton: Love it. Love the energy. And thanks to Tammy Soares. Hey everybody, remember: in this studio we believe in shipping software over slideware, that fast will follow smooth, and aiming to create digital experiences that move millions is a very worthy pursuit. Join us next time as the pursuit continues on Catalyst, the Launch by NTT Data podcast.

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