Clinton Bonner: Yeah, and notice I gave the bad day to the Buffalo Bills fan and not the Packers fan. That was on purpose, for those out there.

Jim Brusnahan: That's very important. 

Clinton: The folks in Lambeau... No bad days at Lambeau. We can't be having that. 

(CATALYST INTRO MUSIC) 

Clinton: Welcome to Catalyst, the Launch by NTT Data podcast. Catalyst is an ongoing discussion for digital leaders dissatisfied with the status quo and yet optimistic about what's possible through smart technology and great people. Today, we're sitting down with the Global Functions IT Business Partnership lead from Clarios, Jim Brusnahan. I met Jim recently at our annual Nexus event in Miami, and had the good fortune to sit next to him and his teammate Angie during dinner, and we were picking up from a conversation we had earlier in the same day. You know what my Spidey sense was telling me? I bet Jim's team and those that he collaborates with, they really appreciate his leadership style. Jim is open, direct, thoughtful, and I believe he understands how to navigate through adversity and blockers to get to action and progress. And I think many of you probably face that every single month, perhaps even every single day. With that, let's welcome to the studio for the first time, Jim Brusnahan. Jim, awesome to have you with us today. 

Jim: Thank you. Awesome to be here. Looking forward to some good discussion. 

Clinton: Alright, Jim. So let's give the audience, you know, we need some context, right? We gotta have something to work from. We need to understand our base here. So, your title. It was a pretty long title. What does that mean? And for the folks out there that don't know Clarios, what does Clarios do? 

Jim: Sure. So Clarios is the world's largest automotive battery manufacturer in the world. Over a third of all vehicles have our batteries in 'em, from lithium ion with the advanced electric vehicles to your standard lead acid battery. So, all regions of the world, that's what we do. Manufacturing. And I'm at the global headquarters in Milwaukee. So, global IT business partnership. What we saw is that the relationship and the human aspect is important in IT. And how you get things done, especially from the corporate headquarters. So we set up a team, and I led that, of how to establish that framework and that partnership with the C-level leaders and all their senior leaders to launch the technology within that framework. 

Clinton: So, I think there's probably folks out there being like, okay, gigantic manufacturer, or large manufacturer of batteries. We need batteries. They help run everything that transports us and therefore helps run the world. And I think there's folks, okay, well, I understand you gotta run a company, and there's technology to go run a company, always. But what kind of technology and experiences does a battery company, like, even need to produce? 

Jim: When you come into the advanced technologies... You have manufacturing, so you have your basic, how do we run all the factories? How do we get information? How do we give data to the people? How do you get advanced analytics from the machines in the hands of the people to guide them in their job? You'll go through your maturity levels of, here's basic information from the past, here's real-time, here's preventative, here's predictive. So you'll grow through maturity levels, basically, how you arm your people with information to do their jobs. That's not just manufacturing plants, though. That's finance. Our CFO is going to want a cockpit. What's coming at me? How do I make decisions? How are things going? What's the pulse of the patient out there? So, every function, from supply chain, HR, they're going to need technology, so how does it enable them today? In today's world, especially with digital technologies, the latest and greatest is always coming out. What we want to do with that, though, is help design that, into that human design and where they're really needed, so how are people going to use that technology also? 

Clinton: And I think it's important to set the stage that, for folks to understand that, hey, yeah, manufacturer of batteries, and a rich, robust technology suite and things happening to serve, not just the business, but then also to extend and then think of new ways you could serve people as well. And we had some good discussions at dinner over some of the things that had been, I think you said, tried in years past or thought about in years past that might have been, like, overengineered. Like, overthought through, all the way to the customer. What do you think a consumer typically wants from a battery company? 

Jim: Let me say this: depends on your age group. So let's get into why I like working with NTT Launch and others too, that... A persona matters, right? So, if you're talking about a grandparent or you're talking about my 18 year old daughter, what they think about a battery is very different. What it's going to shift towards... So, you think about it, you want your car to run. You don't want to even know, really, the battery exists or what's going on, what's about it. And when you go to buy one, it's because it went dead. And now you have a problem. The future, though, if I think of my daughter, they're going to think of more, can I do a subscription? Can I just do something that I don't have to do anything? Maybe I touch a button once and a battery gets replaced. So what we look at now is that, how do you make the batteries smart? How does that battery get analytics to know that it's not doing well, and it's going to communicate that to you, saying, hey driver, I'm not doing well. You might want to replace me, in this amount of time you're going to have a bad day. Now, you can leverage that to further beyond that, of going, okay, I get information, I get a text. Maybe it starts to link up with an ecosystem of, here's a supplier and they can come bring that to my car. And if we talk about the future, maybe you have a one-time code, and they GPS and bring your battery while you're at work, and pop the hood and put a battery in. And all you got was that single message. Yep, my battery, okay, here. I never had a breakdown. I never had to go somewhere. That's the future out there. The immediate future will be more of that smart battery, though. To start predicting and preventing you having any friction points, as we would call them. 

Clinton: I imagine, how many people per day have a bad day? Maybe they left their shift at 2 AM, or maybe it was a super cold overnight and they go out to start their car, or they're... They're at a Buffalo Bills game and they had a really good time, until they didn't have a really good time anymore, right? Because the thing, it died. I'd imagine that you guys probably understand and track, or at least have a pretty good gauge on, on a daily basis, how many people have a kind of, have their day ruined, that you're like, you know what? That's a thing we can go fix. That's a human problem I know we can go fix with technology. 

Jim: And that's where we want to bring in more analytics through the regions, to get even more data on that and get to that predictive model of, I want to predict your bad day before you have your bad day. And what's interesting is, you look between... The world's very different when it comes to batteries. When you're in Colombia or Mexico or China or Germany or USA, all becomes different, how you purchase it. Southeast Asia markets are much more looking at e-commerce or online or how you can do this digitally. United States: hey, I'm going to go to AutoZone, I'm going to go to Walmart, I'm going to go buy my battery off the shelf. The shift of, do you put it in yourself or do you have somebody do it, too? And, I'm in Wisconsin winters, so your bad days usually come when it's 20 below zero... (Laughs) And the battery is not charging right, and you gotta figure that out. So that's the friction point to avoid, of how do we predict that with people? 

Clinton: Alright. You mentioned the relationship earlier with NTT Data and Launch by NTT Data. Appreciate that. You were invited down with your colleague I mentioned earlier to join us at Nexus, which is our annual event that really celebrates the biggest and boldest innovations that are happening with our clients throughout the year. What was that experience like for you, to be at Nexus and be around, or really kind of be in that room of what we think are mainly change agents, the folks with a similar DNA makeup within the enterprise? 

Jim: Nexus was an outstanding event. It was my first time there, so I didn't know what to expect. I've been to lots of conferences. But it was different. And I would say it was different in the same way when I started working with NTT Launch. That... I'm in charge of a lot of technology, and my approach, and what I believe wholeheartedly is, it's not about the technology. Technology works, project management methodology works. It's about human beings. It's about experience. How you design around that. To me, Nexus modeled perfectly my experience, how it's been working with the Launch team. When I first engaged with Launch, I was very suspect. (Laughs) But I was designing employee experience and some leading-edge things. I thought I'd give 'em a try. I didn't think you'd meet the bar. And they exceeded the bar. I think we were both excited to talk to each other, because when I started talking about the human-centric design principles and emotions and people and the personas, they looked at me like, oh, you get it! And I looked at them like, oh, you get it. We were like, happy to meet each other. Like, let's go do something cool together now. And so, we partnered up very well at first to go into that and go, it's not about the technology, it's about people. So at Nexus in Miami, that theme came across very well, too. From the keynote on, that yeah, there's technology stuff. And we'll figure that out. But the big blockers, when you come into a disruptive technology, when you come into creativity, when you come into large global programs, whatever you're trying to do... Any of you out there doing that know, there's a lot of person stuff. From the team to the politics to regions to adoption, to how you get funding, to how it's going to work. And that's what you saw through the theme, that that's really going to be the leading edge and the breakthrough people that do great. That if you get the human part of it, which is really subtly hard to talk about and quantify, we're very used to very black and white hard terms, especially cerebral tech people, right? And so, when you start talking about relationships and people and how they feel, you're going to get all different reactions, even from your executives, like, okay, great, what's the return? When's it done? And so it was nice to hear that theme that the Launch team gets that. And it was nice to take away some great lessons from that. And I know, when we were sitting at the table, the one gripe came up. (Laughs) How I was leading my team, and how they deal with, when they run into some of those blocking personalities or situations. 

Clinton: As we talked about at dinner, I was poking and prodding a bit with you. I'm like, okay, I hear the way you speak, I hear the honest dialogue, your ability to call things out. I was like, I think this is a sharp guy. So I asked you, i said, is there a go-to tactic, something that you've learned previously, something that you created, something that you've shepherded into your organization, that you've used, that kind of introduces people to how you want to lead and how you expect them to communicate with one another? And that's when you said to me, you're like, yeah. I have this philosophy or this tactic of, one gripe. And I thought that was pretty cool. And I'm like, well, what do you mean by one gripe? And then you shared. So if you can, give a little bit on the... What is that one-gripe tactic or philosophy and how does it work? 

Jim: (Chuckles) Yeah, I will. One gripe. So, it's interesting. I went home and I'm like, what does gripe even mean? That's a strange word. You know? I don't even know how well that translates to people, because I work with global teams. And so, I looked it up and it was, to complain about something in a persistent, irritating way. That's a gripe. And so, one gripe came out of when my team, a project team, my direct reports or anybody, you get blocked, you don't get the funding, you get negativity, you run into bureaucracy or politics or whatever you run into that's negative, and the team's upset. And I see the team's getting overwhelmed with negative emotion. And you see the complaining. You see a little gossiping starting. You see it's in them. You... They're losing their swagger, their head's down a little, like, okay. They're frustrated. They're upset. They're getting filled with all this, whatever happened. That... I'll call in with the meeting and go, okay, one gripe. And what that means, and what that looks like... We're going to go around the table once. You get to let it out once. But that's it. Then we're done. What happens in the gripe session stays in the grape session. 

Clinton: Love it. 

Jim: So we can have that culture of emotional safety to do that also. And we'll go around the table and let everybody do their complaining. And go out of it. It's so important to do that, because teams get stuck in the negativity. And the more you're on the leading edge and you're going to be a disruptor, you're going to bring new technology and new programs, the more this is going to happen to you. And it's going to take courage and it's going to be hard. And you're going to walk into some other people's sandbox and there's some politics and there's some things. So when that happens, the team needs a way to go through that. I don't think I sat over and said, hey, I'm going to create one gripe, it was just a natural leadership style to come in and do it. But I saw that it's worked very effective over the years to go around it. There's layers to that. You know, it's not just, hey, I'm going to complain and get it out. There's an emotional part, that they're going to process the emotion. Some situations are bigger than others. Some are pretty scary. Like, hey, I might lose my job. Hey, I bumped into the wrong person. Hey, I've really messed this up in the project. So, to just process the emotion is great. We gotta learn to do that, right? As human beings? It's good to do it with others. And when you do that, you realize, the more something sits in my head and it spins and I hit the replay button, yeah, this and this and this. It just grows in that darkness and it gets more isolated, more negative. When we sit with a team and we share it and let it out, really quickly, we're getting to laughter, right? Put a little sunshine on it. And so by the time you're around that table, by the time with your team, it's taken a lot of the power away. We've gotten the emotion out. I'll tell you on the emotional part, though, that sometimes it might stick in us and we need more. So you, I can do the one gripe, but I can tell, like, it really rattled somebody too. That's where I would say, beyond the emotional part, there's a psychological part. Personally, as a leader, it's a good way to assess your team. All of us have what I would say is like, Kryptonite. Superman's really strong, he's got his Kryptonite. There's a person, or a situation, or there's something out there that's all of our Kryptonite. And some people push our buttons way more than others, or some situations scare us way more. It's beyond logic, even, at times. We've just got these buttons. 

Clinton: Right. 

Jim: And so, as the leader, it's great to assess the team. And go, okay, where's their Kryptonite? How do I help coach them through this? Where are they at? I also get to assess the team on, who speaks up too much and who doesn't speak up enough? So as we're going through this, it's not just the cute phrase, it's not just the emotion processing, I'm assessing the team. Okay, you share plenty. (Laughs) There's others in the room. And we know you're going to gripe. A lot. We hear it, right? So they gotta get the message of, okay, you get one and you're done. You know? And there's others in the room. Other people, hey, have a voice. Don't just put your head down and be quiet. I want to see you get angry. Right? Like, have some emotion and bring it out. You gotta be angry about that. And you could help them get unstuck. 

Clinton: What are some of the cues? What are you trying to pick up on to recognize, alright, whatever that thing is, that thing really got to them. Like... And how do you parse that, as a leader, also with other... You know, you've been doing this for a while. So how do you think through what impacts whom? Do you categorize people? Is it dangerous to categorize and paint with a broad brush? Or is there some effectiveness in being like, okay, I've seen these traits before, and they kind of lead you to a logical place of what might upset a person like that? Or is it very individualistic? 

Jim: I don't like the word never. I'm not an absolute guy. I might say never, but... (Laughs) When it comes to broad brushing, labeling, categorizing, let me say this: I don't like it and I avoid it almost always. I think it's lazy thinking. I think it's even dangerous at times. It can really be blind to things. And I think it's not humble to respect that everybody's an individual, an individual situation, the universe is changing. It's complicated, right? Like, it can lead to binary thinking. I think very few things in life are binary. All good, all bad, right? Wrong. It's like, no, it's complicated. And so, no. I look at everybody as a very individualistic person in an individualistic day and situation, as I approach it. As far as looking at that individual, then, as a leader, I want to help grow them to the best version of themselves. And to sustain that and keep doing it. And you can see when somebody... We all get our symptoms that something's off. I have them. I think the most important trait of a leader is self-awareness. We've all got it. Let me not get sleepy up all night with my kids, miss breakfast, be scared, have the... Like, what do I do? What's my dark side during those...? It's not about, we all got that. It's about, can we manage it? Do we own it? Are we aware of it? And so through that, you'll get to know your team. I have four daughters. I'm a girl dad times four, it's awesome. So I get plenty of practice there, on the gripe sessions. But you get to see the traits of your teams... Like, okay, what do you do? And let's become aware of that. That's probably always going to be there. If all of us are honest, there's some stuff we get rid of, there's some stuff like, yeah, I tend to do that when I'm off. And so then we can start talking about, okay, how do you manage that? You know, what do we do to bring the best version of you with that? What I see, though, is there's times, if I look at myself, and I think this is true of most people I've coached, led or mentored, that I just go from 0 to 100, right? All of a sudden I want to interrupt, I want to defend. A little lawyer in my head starts saying... Here's what happens to me: You're right. And you should let them know you're right. And I start building my case. Like, these are escalating, confrontational things. So what happened is, something was poked in me. Is it a wound? Is it a fear? I could tell you most of the time underneath all of this, there's fear. Under, you don't know it. Feels good to be angry and in control. But maybe I messed something up I should have seen in my job. Maybe my project's not going to happen. Maybe my vision isn't. Maybe I'm going to miss my bonus. Maybe I... Underneath all that, it's like, okay, there's fear. And we don't de-escalate fear through being right and lecturing, and... (Laughs) It's more like, hey, we're a team. Hey, we're with you. Let's get current and help you with it. So it can really lead to the individual, individualistic coaching that the person's going to need. And a very important part of this coaching for them to learn, if someone else can take my serenity and get me angry and take my smile, they own me. 

Clinton: Mm. 

Jim: They're in charge. And so the question is, okay, who's able to do that or what situation? Because if they can do that, I can get up, have my healthy breakfast, meditate, run, and all of a sudden, bam, someone's got me on the ropes in two minutes and I'm not the best version of me, well, they're in charge. And I don't want to put my head down and submit and become the order taker, which a lot of IT does, just acts like a service provider. 

Clinton: Right. 

Jim: I don't want to put my chin up and chest out and punch back either. I want to stay me. Centered, calm, acting, not reacting, present. And so that's what the team's got to realize, is that what's knocking you off center and putting you on the ropes, and how do we manage that? 

Clinton: I want to go into a couple of the areas of specific one gripe situations, if you will, because I think this is kind of cool. So let's say you're going around the table with your team and we're going through the one gripe. You know, you're recognizing that some of the gripes you're hearing, or even one of them you're hearing, is truly out of your control, that individual's control or your team's control. It's like, hey, you're saying a true thing, you know? And, but, we can't do a damn thing about it. Like, what do you do in that situation to coach the team? 

Jim: It's almost always the case, by the way. I can't change other people. And we're usually griping about other people or organizations of people, or... Right? And so, it's almost always the case that we don't have power over it. And so, it's very important to, okay, get it out. But then we're going to go towards the acceptance, is a part that's going to happen in this. Is I have to get them towards the acceptance. That this is no longer a variable, it's just true. This is how this person is. This is how they're going to be. We're not going to change. If you walk around in gossip and negative and keep going again, they're in your head now. And as you go up levels in an organization, then you're going to run into more stuff, right? You're gonna run into straight-up abusive personalities. Some narcissists and tyrants. It's usually not there, but it's something we run into. And guess what? They want you thinking about them and they want to be in your head. So it's very much, we're going to purge it out. We're just going to accept, what do we have power over and what do we not? And so, there's a logical part in that as a team, that this is now a useless time and energy and effort, for us to keep going on in this. There's no new information. And that's the phrase, that this is now a constant, so now, how do we adjust ourselves as a team and as a person, to manage this as a constant? An example I think of with this... Because you want to avoid the victim mentality. In my career, came through engineering, up in through operations management, corporate strategy and IT the last decade somehow. That's a different story. I don't know... I didn't expect that one. (Laughs) But what I saw is that, IT and engineering, big cerebral, big brained people we are. They're often going into this victim mentality. Oh, the top up executives are saying this. And so we don't get our project. And they're not doing this and they're not doing that. And you don't want that. That's taking away our power. It's very negative. You've just got to get out of that disempowering mode with it. And what I can tell you, when I coach people, too. The more I want to focus on somebody else, it just feels good to sit there as the victim, the more I don't want to look at me and maybe how I gotta change, or I gotta change my approach for that. An example I always think of is that... I think of a snake. How... Snakes'll bite me. I used to live in the south, I go trail running, they can be poisonous, they could kill me. Okay, they're out there. But it's a snake. I don't sit around and keep griping about snakes and complaining and getting upset and getting emotional, because I've accepted, it's a snake. It'll bite you, Jim. And then what I did is I took my actions for that constant, going, okay, this is just true. How do I make boundaries and distance and change my actions to navigate this situation? And so, that shows that if a person, a system, an organization is doing stuff that's very negative for me and my ambitions, okay, it's just true. Adjust yourself, set up your boundaries, your distance, your actions, and learn how to navigate that as a constant, versus just complaining about it and letting it be in your head. 

Clinton: Yes, you're not going to go into a snake pit on purpose, right? That's one thing. You know, we don't want to do an Indiana Jones type thing here. But you're not going to avoid the trails to the place you want to go, a trail you really enjoy and what you enjoy doing. And a nice metaphor there. So think it carries over really, really crisply. And then how about when... You know, you use the tactic or you use this philosophy of one gripe, and I love it. I could see how it would work very, very well in the team environment. Like, what triggers for you in the brain when you're like, ooh, this situation, i don't think one gripe's either going to cut it, and that might be the wrong term, or I'm just not going to deploy that here. This is not the right time for this type of discussion. How does that happen for you? Does that happen for you? 

Jim: It just happened to me personally this week. (Laughs) So when I'm speaking, a lot of times, all of a sudden it's like... I always get nervous, like we're gonna, universe is giving me a real-world example. And I had a tough one this week. I wasn't shaking off easy. First of all, you don't... You know, I've created an environment where I can do that with the team. Not everybody has that with their boss or their team either. So that's already saying that, you just don't go straighten it all out until you have that. And so, I let me add this, it's very important to me. I've got a mentor in my life. I think it's very important you find somebody. And I don't mean it like a hierarchy, like they're the guru, but have somebody at work or outside of work you can go to for life stuff. It doesn't mean they're a guru for everything, but they can help with that. So I had a situation where it was very hard to shake off. I was pissed. And it's been a while. Of how things went down in a meeting, and didn't think they were very honest or right or what have you. Details don't matter because I can't change it. And, you know, I called my mentor, even and talked with him, and I could tell I wasn't shaking it. Because the way it looks is the hamster wheel starts going, and even after I'm done, it's still going. The replay is there. So, you know, I'm not in the moment. The situation's still coming. And so, to me, I don't want to go to a lot of people because that turns into gossip, and who wants somebody that's always got that? I shared it with him. Then, what I did? Here's my three things: exercise, meditation, communication. You have to find your own way to work through things that really stick in you, with it. And to get it out and go through it. I love to go for trail runs, so something I did is communicate to my daughters that, hey... Because I start to get distant or distracted in my emotional relationships in life, because it's in my head. I feel anxiety, I feel anger, I feel resentment, I feel fear. So I communicate to my loved ones around me or close, sometimes in my team, I'll go, hey, I'm playing injured today. I got hit hard in the meeting, my mind's not here. Because people can take things personally around us when we're off. And the more you're in power, and the more you're a leader, the more people are watching you more than you know. And so I want to communicate, hey, it's not you, it's me. I made a phone call. Then I did exercise and meditation to work on it. I could tell you, three days later, it's gone. It's not like a light switch. The percentage has gone down, right? And as I sat with it, I remembered how it's not personal. These people aren't waking up saying, I'm going to go get Jim today. I'm really going to mess up his day. 

Clinton: Right. 

Jim: And so often myself or others can take it personal and it's not. And I also took time to understand their side of the street and go, well, where are they at and what are they doing? And why? And what's their fear? And what's driving them? And so it's... Can take some days. So I think, find your own method. I think exercise, meditation, communication are very good things to do. Sometimes I think I... Go grab a pint of Ben and Jerry's and take it down, too. (Laughs) That helps smooth it over.  

Clinton: I think everybody does want to know now, is there a go-to flavor for you, though? So, if we ever have to send you a cope pint for any reason, we know what flavor you really enjoy. 

Jim: I think the brownie core is the one right now that we're...  

Clinton: That's a classic for sure. So a lot of the things you're saying too, Jim, they, for me, speak to having a high level of self-awareness. And I think that then permeates and comes out in effective leadership. So, you just went through this thing, you know, that, enough detail, a week or so ago. And like you said, the dimmer switch is working. It's starting to dissipate. And you're working through that, but you're putting in active work to make that happen. How did you come about these philosophies and tactics throughout your career and life? And let's say we rewound the clock 15 years ago, and you were hit with something similar in your career or life at that point. 15 years ago, were you in this kind of place to have that kind of, I would say, very thoughtful reaction and attitude towards it? Or, has this also been a progressive journey for you from, let's say, 15 or 20 years ago when you started, whatever it was when you began? 

Jim: It's always a journey. I'm always learning. I'll always have good days and bad days. I try to get my batting percentage up. And as soon as I seem to think I've got it, that's a dangerous thing. It seems that the bar gets raised by the universe, like, yeah, you got it, but welcome to level 20, right? Like... You think you got it. And here's the next situation. You're like, whoa. You see that email or this new personality. So it's... What I would tell you is, yeah. 15 years ago I'd have been on this, pretty good couple of decades I've been working on this. But I wouldn't have been ready for the scenarios I'm in. I was in a smaller pond. And so, as I would master, kind of, that one, all of a sudden you get the next one and the next one. Or, life changes. Hey, welcome. Hey, you're happy, Jim, you're all Mr. Serene and spiritual. Now you've got a baby. Now you've got two. Now you've got four. Right? 

Clinton: (Laughs) 

Jim: It's like, now go be Mr. Serene and Compassionate. So, the way to keep that simple to me, though... And I was in the military. I'm a veteran of the infantry, and I think that's where things started, is you're in an extreme situation. And you have to start managing yourself and regulating your emotions, or you have consequences that come up, too. But you learned there to take it a day at a time. The mind likes to complicate things. If I see somebody really sucking wind, I'm like, are you okay 'til midnight? Because we can usually make it till midnight. It's in projection where we really start to spiral down and go, what about tomorrow and the week and my career and this and my money? And all these things. If I can go, what are my needs today? So if I'm really hurting, what do I not have power over? How do I get through the day? But also, yeah, my journey through the years is when I mess up, and I'll always mess up, I go into, why? What behaviors do I want to change, as I look at it? I've gotten better at it and I can go in tougher situations, but you gotta keep the steel sharp, too. So, kind of, these situations become a blessing. And that's what I would say is, over time, the obstacles become the blessing. Because they've shown me where I have to grow and learn and keep my steel sharp. If I was always dealt four aces in poker, I'd never get to be a good poker player. And so it's when you get a bad hand or you get a bad situation, you go, okay, now what do I do? I think there's a part of it is you gotta care, too, as a leader. You know, how you're experienced and how you want to be with people, too, in your relationships. 

Clinton: So, you know, let's say we have an off-suit seven-two, but you're in the mindset to push those chips in, right? We talked at dinner about, and you mentioned it a bit earlier about this concept of, or this acknowledgment, which again is a form of self-awareness, for sure. When you're having a professional discussion, and maybe it is a bit heated. And again, not because someone doesn't like you, it's... they have a point of view also. But you had said to me, you know, I really have to take a step back. Am I fighting because I think I'm right? Or am I being helpful? 

Jim: Yeah. 

Clinton: So, can you define those two and why one's more effective for you? 

Jim: One of my top mantras to this day, the most dangerous thing in my life personally has been being right. I don't know if there's anything that's hurt me more in my life, or when I've gotten in my own way. That's something, as a younger man, as I've grown older, being right's become less and less important with it. So I have a mantra. I have mantras that I make custom for me and my, um, issues to manage. And one of them is, am I being right or am I being helpful? You know, so every morning I look at the... Not every, I'm not perfect, but usually, I'll look at these and remember them. And then if I'm centered during the day, I can do that, and go am I being right, or am I being helpful? And what that means is, if I'm in a discussion and it's becoming heated, confrontational, and I'm like, God... It's usually not the plan. I don't walk in going, boy, I hope this one gets ugly, right? Um... 

Clinton: (Laughs) Right, right. 

Jim: But I can pause. If I start bringing more data, more information, more stuff, and just try to be right to coax my own fear, or to dominate the discussion, that just escalates things. And the other person's going to bring more. You see this in IT all the time, by the way, in technology, let me bring an even smarter approach and bigger PowerPoint to show you why you should give me the money and my project should be priority. I'm just going to dominate you with intellect and power and bring more people and smarter... It's like, that was never the issue. Helpful is, let me seek to understand them. I've had it where I've even paused conversations or meetings and said, this isn't going how I expected, we're getting tense. I go, I didn't want this, I don't know why we're here and how? How can I help you? Forget about what I'm trying to get. I don't want anything anymore. What's going on? What do you need? And so, to pause and put someone else's needs, a priority. And to listen to them and hear them, and what's going on? And maybe you gotta pause that and go one on one with somebody, right? This is where that dynamic, where you go all the way back to building those relationships, that's the most powerful thing at work. You can go, hey, let's shut the door and talk. What's up? And so, that's being helpful. It's de-escalating. It's understanding. It's not trying to get or take. Now, with that, relationships are equal. They're not dependence or dominance. That means I get a turn too. So that means okay, we heard your part. Got it, I'm here for you. Here's my part. Here's where I'm at. And can we try and figure this out? What works in human beings works with human beings, home or at work, right? I do this with my daughters. You know, if something's getting emotional, I'll just... I've had it where I'll just put my hand on their shoulder, look them in the eyes, and I was like, ceasefire. Same team. I'm like, I don't know how we got here. We need to blame somebody, I'll take it, I don't really care. How can I help you? And that's very effective partnership. That's very effective for these blockers. Where is their fear? What are their needs? There's a reason it's getting heated, right? Can I help you? But we gotta understand my part eventually too. I'd add to that, when we talk about acceptance, and now... This is not going into disrespectful behavior. So let's be clear there. I came up in auto manufacturing. And automotive manufacturing where, you had old-school Detroit guys start pounding the table, yelling, swearing, throwing chairs, getting crazy. Right? Back in the day. I grew up in a home with that, unfortunately, too, which is a whole 'nother story. So it was a blessing, it forced me to not put my head down and not yell back, but to set boundaries. So we are saying, if somebody's disrespectful, you go, hey, we need to talk. Yelling, swearing, insulting, shaming. That ain't going to work and we're not going to get along well. I don't deserve it, it ain't going to happen. Irregardless of rank. Lose your job. Fine. Good. It'll be a blessing. Get a new one. Get out of there. 

Clinton: Right. 

Jim: So... I'll just make that line clear, that we're not talking about that kind of extreme. We're talking about, hey, we've just got some healthy conflict. 

Clinton: Yeah, good distinction there for sure. I always want to also look at things in, however they can scale. Especially, like, scaling through humans. So, how have you taken some of these ideas and these philosophies and brought them to a group of individuals or a full team? It's really cool to have that self-awareness yourself. How do you embody, how do you give folks the ability to gain this for themselves within a team environment? And are there certain ways you've brought that to your team at Clarios? 

Jim: Yeah, mentoring people and start coaching it, so they become the teachers themselves. Create the environment that you can do that. And so, as I do that now, if I get a new team, I start seeing where they're at, and start coaching them to do it. People don't do what I say, they do what I am. So it's all about role modeling. I create an emotionally safe environment to do that, and then we start practicing it. I'll write articles or speak or come on things like this, too. And people often reach out, or you can share it that way. I think how we're talking and how individualistic it is, it is kind of a small-batch brew though, too, right? Like, you can only go so deep because it does become individualistic. It can become as simple as, hey, stop gossiping and do one gripe and accept and move on. Right? Get your head in a solution, not the problem. Let's get creative. Let's get back. Or it could be like, hey, you really got, you got some, like, trauma, or you're timid, or we gotta really work on your personality here, right? So I think it becomes that individualistic learning and coaching. But the more leaders I can make, the more they can do that and we can pyramid it down. And the more I share. You know, I don't believe in lecturing. I believe in sharing. You know, we're all equals on a path. I've got some experience. Making an emotionally safe environment, leading with vulnerability, not trying to be some guru up there, but... Here's where I mess up. Here's what I got. What do you guys? And treating them like adults. They'll naturally bring the best out of the teams and people to do that then, too, I think.  

Clinton: Really cool stuff. Thank you so much. I think, a good place to wrap it, too. We've been chatting with Jim Brusnahan, Global Functions IT Business Partnership lead from Clarios. Jim, I want to say thank you, you know, for sharing these leadership philosophies, the action items, and with our audience today. Thank you for being on with us and really sharing these thought leadership ideas, these leadership philosophies with us. I think it was a home run in every single level. 

Jim: Thank you. Happy to be here, happy to share. 

Clinton: And what's the best place for folks to find you, you know, professionally? Is it LinkedIn? Are you a Twitter guy? What's your favorite place to hang socially? 

Jim: I'm not a social media guy. (Laughs) Believe it or not. So... 

Clinton: I believe it, I believe it. But, is there a, if they wanted to come say hi, is there a LinkedIn thing they could hit? 

Jim: I do have a LinkedIn up there with probably an older picture and information. So, go ahead there, I'll start checking that out. 

Clinton: (Laughs) Gotcha. For those listening it's B-r-u-s-n-a-h-a-n. So, Jim Brusnahan. So, alright Jim, thank you so much again. And for everyone enjoying these Catalyst conversations, please share the podcast with colleagues and friends. Because we believe in shipping software over slideware, that fast will follow smooth, and aiming to create digital experiences that move millions is a very worthy pursuit. Join us next time as the pursuit continues on Catalyst, the Launch by NTT Data podcast. 

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